| 00:00:00 | Not
violate the rights of law-
abiding citizens and they
actually do something
constructive, significant, and
affected to protect law-abiding
citizens.
|
| 00:00:15 | Captain kelly talked-about the
failure of the matrix.
|
| 00:00:17 | I 20 -- I testified 25 years ago
before this committee about one
thing that turned out to be part
of that matrix of failure and
that was the ban on so-called
assault weapons.
|
| 00:00:23 | I warned during that testimony
then that it was based not on
the function of guns or how
fast they fired or how powerful
they were bought on
superficial, cosmetic
characteristics and accessories.
|
| 00:00:38 | As part of a compromise that
eventually led to that bill
being mistakenly passed by
congress, the bill had a 10-
year sunset and a requirement
that the the part of justice
supervised a study of the
effectiveness of that law.
|
| 00:00:59 | That study -- the people to
carry about -- carry out that
study were chosen by janet reno
at the department of justice and
they concluded that the law had
done nothing.
|
| 00:01:03 | It did not save lives.
|
| 00:01:06 | It had did not reduce the
number of bullets fired in
crimes.
|
| 00:01:10 | It had been a failure.
|
| 00:01:12 | To some minor degree, it
switched the type of guns used
in crimes so you had a gun with
one name instead of another
name but it did not reduce
crime overall.
|
| 00:01:29 | Indeed, it was a dangerous bill
in the sense that so much
political attention was
distracted by the focus on this
that it took public attention
away from debate on measures
that might have been more
constructive and life-saving.
|
| 00:01:36 | Today, police and law abiding
citizens to semiautomatic
handguns and rifles such as the
ar-15 for the same reason, they
are also a choice to defend.
|
| 00:01:50 | These are only meant for mass
murder and that would libel law
abiding citizens.
|
| 00:01:58 | They do not choose his guns for
hunting or collecting but the
purpose for which police of is
a carry firearms, for all
lawful defense of self and
others.
|
| 00:02:11 | Great britain shows the perils
of mass gun confiscation that
some people have proposed.
|
| 00:02:21 | As a hired violent crime rate
and the united states and
especially high rate of home
invasion burglaries.
|
| 00:02:26 | Congress has repeatedly out log
gun registration because of the
actor recognition that another
country gun registration has
been used for confiscation.
|
| 00:02:38 | Since 1941, 1986, 1993
congressional statutes are one
way the gun rights can be
protected against future abuses.
|
| 00:02:51 | Unfortunately, the bill's about
universal background checks
that have been proposed in
recent congresses with the
support of new york city mayor
michael bloomberg have often had
provisions and then for gun
registraon and many other
violations of the civil
liberties of law-abiding persons
such as allowing gun bans for
people accused but acquitted of
drug crimes.
|
| 00:03:08 | Universal background checks
should be available.
|
| 00:03:14 | It was a wise move by president
obama in his january 16 press
conference to begin changes in
federal drug -- regulations to
allow the private sellers to
access the background check
system v licensed firearm
dealers.
|
| 00:03:30 | Many people would take advantage
of that and I commend them but
mandating universal checks can
only be enforceable if there is
universal gun registration and
we know that universal gun
registration in every country
in the world where it has
existed has been a serious peril
to gun ownership.
|
| 00:03:54 | Universal gun registration was
imposed by canada in 1995 and
was later repealed in 2012 by
the canadian parliament because
it was such a fiasco.
|
| 00:04:00 | If we want to save lives right
now, there is only one thing
that will stop the next copycat
killer in the lawful armed
self-defense and the schools not
only by armed guards but also
by teachers.
|
| 00:04:15 | Utah provides the successful
model.
|
| 00:04:19 | There, a teacher who has a
permit to carry every
background check and safety
training class everywhere else
in the state is not prohibited
from carrying at the school.
|
| 00:04:27 | Gun prohibition lobbies, the
balkans a fantastic scenarios
about the harm is that these
would cause that teachers would
shoot each other or threaten
students or the students will
steal the guns.
|
| 00:04:46 | They have had this practice in
utah and many years and there
has never been a single problem.
|
| 00:04:50 | We have never had an attack on a
utah school.
|
| 00:04:51 | Want to save lives, armed
defense in schools is the media
and best choice while other
constructive solutions may take
longer to have any effect, thank
you.
|
| 00:04:57 | >> Thank you very much.
|
| 00:05:03 | Chief james johnson is the
police chief of the baltimore
county police department.
|
| 00:05:08 | He started his career as a
police cadet at the age of 80.
|
| 00:05:14 | Has more than 30 years of
experience with the department.
|
| 00:05:20 | He is also the chair of the
national law enforcement
partnership to prevent the
violence and represents nine
national law enforcement
organizations.
|
| 00:05:27 | Chief, thank you for taking the
time to be here, please go
ahead, sir.
|
| 00:05:35 | >> Thank you for the
opportunity to testify.
|
| 00:05:38 | I am here on behalf of the
national law enforcement
partnership to prevent gun
violence.
|
| 00:05:44 | >> Your microphone on?
|
| 00:05:45 | >> Yes, it is.
|
| 00:05:54 | I am here on behalf of the
national law enforcement
partnership to prevent gun
violence.
|
| 00:06:04 | It aligns the nation's law
enforcement leadership
organizations concerned about
the unacceptable level of gun
violence in the united states.
|
| 00:06:12 | We mourn loss of gun violence
victims including the 20
children and six adults in
newtown whose lives were cut
short by an individual armed
with firepower originally
designed for combat.
|
| 00:06:19 | More than 30 homicides occur in
america each day, 2000
children, and six adults and
newtown are among those
individuals.
|
| 00:06:31 | "18 And under die from gun-
related violence every year.
|
| 00:06:34 | In 2011 for the first time in
14 years, fire arms was a
leading cause of death for
police officers killed in a line
of duty.
|
| 00:06:42 | In one week period, in 2011,
the police executive research
forum found that a gun crime in
six cities would cost more than
$38 million.
|
| 00:06:56 | The year 2010, the cost in the
entire country was more than
$57 billion trade we urgently
need congress to address the
rising epidemic of gun violence
in this nation.
|
| 00:07:08 | And for some leaders support
the president paz comprehensive
approach which includes
enhancing safety and
educational institutions and
addresses mental health issues.
|
| 00:07:21 | On behalf of my colleagues
across the nation, I am here
today to tell you that we are
long overdue in strengthening
our nation's gun laws.
|
| 00:07:31 | Doing so must be a priority for
congress.
|
| 00:07:32 | Organizations in the national
law enforcement partnership to
prevent gun violence are
urgently calling on you to
require background checks for
all firearms purchases, to
insure that records are in a
system and they are complete
and limit high capacity
ammunition devices for 10
rounds.
|
| 00:07:55 | Seven of our nine groups
including the largest among us
also support senator
feinstein's assault weapons ban
legislation.
|
| 00:08:07 | Federal law prohibits dangerous
individuals such as convicted
felons and those with mental
health this qualifiers for
possessing firearms.
|
| 00:08:15 | Background checks are required
on dealers, no check is
required for private sales such
as those for online or print ads
or gun shows.
|
| 00:08:25 | Is a major problem.
|
| 00:08:27 | From november, 2011-november,
6 million
transactions occurred without a
background check.
|
| 00:08:36 | This occurs for private
individuals rather than
licensed gun dealers.
|
| 00:08:43 | It allows 40 percent of those
requiring guns to bypass
checks, it is like allowing 40%
of passengers to board a plan
without going through security.
|
| 00:08:52 | Would we do this?
|
| 00:08:54 | Last october in brookfield,
wisconsin, seven women were
shot by present -- by a
prohibited purchaser was under
a restraining order.
|
| 00:09:04 | The shooter answered an online
ad was able to buy a gun
without a check of very quickly.
|
| 00:09:13 | Had the sale been required to
have a check, the tragedy could
have been prevented.
|
| 00:09:16 | Background checks work.
|
| 00:09:18 | They stop nearly 2 million
prohibited purchasers between
1994-2009.
|
| 00:09:24 | We already have a national
background check system in
place.
|
| 00:09:31 | Therefore extending the
background check to all
purchases can easily be
implemented and it should be
without delay.
|
| 00:09:35 | States cannot do it alone.
|
| 00:09:37 | Interstate firearms trafficking
is a rampant problem and it
must be addressed federally.
|
| 00:09:42 | According to atf, 2009, 30% of
guns recovered had -- at crime
scenes crossed state lines.
|
| 00:09:50 | Maryland recovered nearly 2000
last year from outside the
state.
|
| 00:09:59 | In 20007 massacre at virginia
tech is a great example of a
prepared to purchase are
slipping through the cracks due
to thenix branch checks.
|
| 00:10:11 | The ban on high-capacity
magazines must be reinstated.
|
| 00:10:15 | Like assault weapons, high-
capacity magazines are not used
for hunting.
|
| 00:10:20 | They do not belong in our homes
and a recovery of our community.
|
| 00:10:23 | Banning these magazines will
limit the number of rounds a
shooter can discharge before he
had to reload.
|
| 00:10:32 | Reloading can provide a window
to escape an offer cover or
concealment or attacked the
adversary.
|
| 00:10:39 | To take down the shooter -- in
1998, after the ban was
enacted, the percentage of
firearms of large capacity
magazines decrease to and
continued to drop until it hit a
low of 9% of the weapons
recovered.
|
| 00:11:03 | In 2004, the year the ban
expired, it hit a high of 20% in
2010.
|
| 00:11:07 | I have been in law enforcement
for nearly 35 years and I have
seen an explosion of firepower
since the assault weapons ban
expired.
|
| 00:11:14 | It is common to find many
showcasing that crime scenes
when you investigate.
|
| 00:11:19 | Victims are being riddled with
multiple gunshots.
|
| 00:11:24 | The common-sense measures we
call for will not infringe on
the second amendment rights but
will keep guns out of the
dangers hands of people who are
out there to commit danger in
our society and excessive power
-- firepower out of our
communities.
|
| 00:11:40 | Generations of americans
including our youngest are
depending on you to ensure that
they will grow up and fulfill
their roles in the great human
experience.
|
| 00:11:53 | None of us can fail them and i
urge you to follow the will of
the american public on this
issue and stand with law
enforcement when these common-
sense public safety measures.
|
| 00:12:03 | Thank you.
|
| 00:12:03 | >> Thank you, chief.
|
| 00:12:06 | Our next witness is gail
trotter, the co-founder of her
law firm here in washington.
|
| 00:12:15 | She is also a senior in an
independent women's forum.
|
| 00:12:20 | Good to have you here, go ahead,
please.
|
| 00:12:23 | >> Chairman lady gaga record
number grassley, and members of
this committee, thank you for
inviting me to appear before
you today.
|
| 00:12:32 | We all want a safer society.
|
| 00:12:33 | We differ on how to make our
society safer.
|
| 00:12:38 | We differ on whether some
proposals will actually
increase public safety.
|
| 00:12:45 | I urge you to reject any
actions that will fail to make
americans safer.
|
| 00:12:54 | In particular, are women the
most I would like to begin with
the compelling story of sara
mckinley.
|
| 00:12:58 | She was home alone with her
baby, she called 911 when two
violent intruders began to
break down her front door.
|
| 00:13:06 | These men are forcing their way
into our home to steal the
prescription medication of her
recently deceased husband.
|
| 00:13:13 | Before police could arrive,
while she was still on the
phone with 911, these violent
intruder broke down her door one
of the man had a foot long
hunting knife.
|
| 00:13:26 | The intruder forced their way
into that her home, she fired
her weapon.
|
| 00:13:35 | She fatally wounded one of the
violent attackers.
|
| 00:13:36 | The other fled.
|
| 00:13:40 | Later, she explained that it
was either going to beat him or
my son.
|
| 00:13:44 | It was not going to be my son.
|
| 00:13:47 | Guns make women safer.
|
| 00:13:50 | Over 90% of violent crimes
occur without a firearm which
makes guns the great equalizer
for women.
|
| 00:13:59 | The vast majority of violent
criminals use their size and
their physical strength to prey
on women who are at a severe
disadvantage.
|
| 00:14:11 | In a violent confrontation,
bonds reversed the balance of
power.
|
| 00:14:15 | An armed woman does not need
superior strength or the
proximity of a hand-to-hand
struggle.
|
| 00:14:23 | Concealed carry laws reverse
that balance of power even
before a violent confrontation
occurs.
|
| 00:14:29 | For a would-be criminal, but
carry laws but reduce the risk
of committing a crime.
|
| 00:14:36 | This indirectly benefits even
those who do not carry.
|
| 00:14:44 | Research shows that in
jurisdictions with concealed
carry laws, women are less
likely to be raped or murdered
than they are in states with
more restrictions on gun
ownership.
|
| 00:14:55 | Armed security works.
|
| 00:14:58 | Brave men and women stand guard
over capitol hill, including
this building where we are now.
|
| 00:15:07 | Armed guards protect high-
profile individuals including
prominent gun-control
advocates, some of whom also
rely on personal gun permits.
|
| 00:15:18 | While armed security works, gun
bans do not anti-gun
legislation keep guns away from
the same and the law-abiding but
not criminals.
|
| 00:15:28 | No sober minded person would
advocate a gun ban instead of
armed security to protect
banks, airports, or government
buildings.
|
| 00:15:37 | We need sensible enforcement of
laws that are already on the
books.
|
| 00:15:42 | Currently, we have thousands,
thousands of under-enforced or
selectively enforce gun laws
and we failed to prosecute
serious gun violations and
impose meaningful, consistent
penalties for gun felonies
involving firearms.
|
| 00:16:01 | Instead of self-defeating
gestures, we should address the
gun violence based on what
works.
|
| 00:16:09 | Guns make women safer.
|
| 00:16:10 | The supreme court has
recognized that lawful self-
defense is east -- is an
essential component of the
second amendment guarantee of
the right to keep and bear arms.
|
| 00:16:24 | For women, the ability to arm
ourselves for our protection is
even more consequential than
for men.
|
| 00:16:32 | Because guns are the great
equalizer in a violent
confrontation.
|
| 00:16:37 | As a result, we protect women
by safeguarding our second
amendment rights.
|
| 00:16:44 | Every woman deserves a fighting
chance.
|
| 00:16:47 | Thank you.
|
| 00:16:51 | >> Excuse me, thank you very
much.
|
| 00:16:55 | Our last witness is wayne la
peirre of the national rifle
association.
|
| 00:17:04 | I believe you have been there
since 1970?
|
| 00:17:06 | >> That is correct.
|
| 00:17:08 | >> Please go ahead.
|
| 00:17:10 | chairman and
members of the committee.
|
| 00:17:14 | 5 million
moms and dads and sons and
daughters --
>> press that white button.
|
| 00:17:25 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:17:27 | It is an honor to be here today
5
million moms and dads and sons
and daughters in every state
across our nation will make up
the national rifle association
of america.
|
| 00:17:38 | 5 million active
members of the nra and they are
joined by tens of millions of
supporters throughout the
country.
|
| 00:17:49 | It is on behalf of those
millions of decent, hard-
working, law-abiding citizens
that I am here today to give
voice to their concerns.
|
| 00:18:00 | The title of today's hearing is
what should america do about gun
"
elieve the answer is to be
honest about what works and
honest about what does not work.
|
| 00:18:09 | Teaching safe and responsible
gun ownership works and the nra
has a long and proud history of
doing exactly that our child
safety program has taught 25
million young people that if
they see a gun, they should do
four things -- stop, don't
touch it, leave the area, and
call an adult.
|
| 00:18:32 | As a result of this and other
private-sector programs, fatal
fire arms accidents are apples
level in 100 years.
|
| 00:18:40 | -- At the lowest level in 100
years.
|
| 00:18:48 | The nra has over 80,000
certified instructors to teach
our military personnel, law
enforcement officers, and
hundreds of thousands other
american men and women how to
safely use firearms.
|
| 00:18:57 | Do more and spend more than
anyone else on teaching safe
and responsible gun ownership.
|
| 00:19:13 | We have no more sacred duty and
to protect our children and keep
them safe.
|
| 00:19:21 | That is why we asked ace the
hutchinson to bring in every
available expert to develop a
model school shield program, one
that can be individually
tailored to make our schools as
safe as possible.
|
| 00:19:35 | It is time to throw an immediate
blanket of security around our
children.
|
| 00:19:41 | About a third of our schools
right now have our security
already, because it works.
|
| 00:19:47 | And that number is growing every
day.
|
| 00:19:49 | Right now, state officials,
local authorities, and school
districts in 50 states are
considering their own plan to
protect children in schools.
|
| 00:20:02 | We need to enforce the thousands
of gun laws already on the
books.
|
| 00:20:07 | Prosecuting criminals who miss
use firearms works.
|
| 00:20:31 | Unfortunately, we have seen a
dramatic collapse in federal
gun prosecutions in recent
years.
|
| 00:20:34 | Overall, in 2011, federal
firearms prosecution's per-
capita were down 35% from their
peak in the previous
administration.
|
| 00:20:39 | That means violent felons, a
violent gang members and drug
dealers with guns and the
mentally ill who possessed
firearms are not being
prosecuted.
|
| 00:20:50 | That is completely and totally
unacceptable.
|
| 00:20:53 | Not more than 76 --
there are more than 76,000
firearms purchases denied
federally.
|
| 00:20:56 | Only 62 of those were proposed
for prosecution and only 46
went to court.
|
| 00:21:01 | I think we can agree that our
mental health system is broken.
|
| 00:21:05 | We need to look at the full
range of mental health issues,
from early detection treatment,
to civil commitment laws to
privacy laws that needlessly
prevent mental health records
from being included from the
national list and check system.
|
| 00:21:21 | While we're waiting for a
meaningful effort to solve
these pressing problems, we
must respectfully, but honestly
and firmly disagree with many
members of the committee and the
media on what will keep our
kids safe.
|
| 00:21:41 | Law-abiding gun honors will not
accept the blame for the acts
of of what --
gun owners will not accept blame
for acts of criminals.
|
| 00:21:51 | As I said earlier, we need to
be honest about what works and
what does not.
|
| 00:21:55 | Proposals but would only serve
to burden the law-abiding have
failed in the past and will
fail in the future.
|
| 00:22:03 | Semiautomatic firearm
technology has been around for
100 years.
|
| 00:22:07 | They are the most popular guns
for hunting, target shooting,
self-defense.
|
| 00:22:12 | Despite this fact, congress
banned the manufacture and sale
of hundreds of semi-automatic
firearms from 1994 through 2004.
|
| 00:22:20 | Independent studies, including
one from the clinton justice
department, approved it had no
impact on lowering crime.
|
| 00:22:27 | And when it comes to background
checks, let's be honest.
|
| 00:22:31 | They will never be universal
because criminals will never
submit to them.
|
| 00:22:37 | There are a lot of things that
can be done and we ask you to
join with us.
|
| 00:22:42 | The nra is made up of millions
of americans who support what it
is --
what works.
|
| 00:22:46 | The immediate protection for
all, not just some, of our
school children is what is
needed, and swift punishment of
criminals who misuse guns in
fixing our mental health system.
|
| 00:22:57 | We love our families.
|
| 00:22:58 | We love our country.
|
| 00:23:00 | We believe in freedom.
|
| 00:23:02 | And we are the way --
the millions from all walks of
life to take responsibility and
protection as a god-given,
fundamental american right.
|
| 00:23:15 | >> Chief johnson, let me begin
with you, sir.
|
| 00:23:21 | In my experience, many
criminals are able to get guns
illegally because they use
straw purchases.
|
| 00:23:28 | In other words, a person with
no criminal records can easily
pass a background check and then
goes and buys the guns and turns
them around and gives them to
criminals.
|
| 00:23:41 | There is no federal law that
makes it illegal to act as a
straw purchaser of firearms.
|
| 00:23:49 | Last week, I introduced a bill
that will strengthen federal
law to combat firearms
trafficking and it would
specifically target straw
purchasers.
|
| 00:24:02 | Do you think there should be
such a lot?
|
| 00:24:05 | >> The background procedures in
this nation are seriously in
need of modification.
|
| 00:24:15 | Again, 40% of those acquiring
firearms tried to do it outside
the background procedure.
|
| 00:24:23 | Senator, you are absolutely
correct, many will use a straw
purchaser to go in and acquire
these firearms.
|
| 00:24:29 | It happens every day across
america.
|
| 00:24:31 | It is a serious problem.
|
| 00:24:34 | In national law enforcement
provision to prevent gun
violence support your
initiative to address that
issue.
|
| 00:24:40 | >> Thank you, chief.
|
| 00:24:43 | We also heard testimony about
the safety of women and gun
violence.
|
| 00:24:47 | I'm seeking immediate
consideration of the violence
against riyadh --
against women reauthorization
act.
|
| 00:24:58 | It will be on the floor of the
senate for a vote in the next
couple of weeks.
|
| 00:25:02 | I did this out of concern for
domestic violence victims.
|
| 00:25:08 | Statistics show win in this
country are killed at alarming
rates --
when men in this country are
killed at alarming rates by
domestic abusers with guns
prepare --
women in this country are killed
at alarming rates by domestic
users with guns.
|
| 00:25:25 | If he is able to get a gun with
a straw purchaser, of course,
he still gets it, but he will
not be able to purchase a gun
and a background check is
conducted.
|
| 00:25:46 | That is, if he is a criminal.
|
| 00:25:47 | 38% Fewer women are shot in
states that require a
background check before a gun is
purchase.
|
| 00:25:54 | Do you agree that if we want to
keep firearms away from
domestic abusers, who are not
supposed to have them anyway, we
have to have a better background
check system and require a
background check for every
firearm purchasers?
|
| 00:26:09 | >> Absolutely.
|
| 00:26:11 | I would like to stand before
this group today and say, I've
spent my years of chasing down
violent armed robbers and every
day.
|
| 00:26:19 | As a young patrol officer, most
of my day was one domestic to
another.
|
| 00:26:26 | Statistics show that when
females are killed, over 50% of
the time it is a spouse or
household member.
|
| 00:26:36 | A gun and a home where there is
a history of domestic violence,
statistics show that there is a
500% increase in the chance
that the person will be
victimized by gun violence.
|
| 00:26:49 | We introduced legislation to
allow us to go out and sees the
guns of domestic violence of
users where it has obtained a
protective order.
|
| 00:27:02 | This has been very effective.
|
| 00:27:05 | In my jurisdiction, which
averages about 3500 domestic
violence incidents a year, this
has had a significant impact in
reducing those domestic.
|
| 00:27:19 | Two of the last three years,
was below the 40-year homicide
rate.
|
| 00:27:27 | This has helped us tremendously.
|
| 00:27:29 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:27:32 | Captain kelley, it appears that
you have said that background
checks would not work because
criminals would not submit to
them.
|
| 00:27:41 | I understand that, but they do
not have to go through
background checks because there
are so many loopholes.
|
| 00:27:52 | Do you agree that there is
nothing that we can do to
strengthen our background
checks?
|
| 00:28:03 | >> I disagree.
|
| 00:28:06 | There is a lot we can do.
|
| 00:28:09 | The situation that I know best
is what happened in tucson,
january 8, 2011.
|
| 00:28:14 | Jared loughner, the shooter in
this case, when he purchased a
gun, he purchased it through a
background check.
|
| 00:28:21 | But there was a lot of evidence
that could have been in the
criminal background check system
about him that would have
prevented him from buying a gun
through a background check.
|
| 00:28:34 | That is part of the problem.
|
| 00:28:38 | -- Part of the solution.
|
| 00:28:43 | The other problem is, let's say,
he was denied the purchase of
the gun, which he purchased in
november, 2010.
|
| 00:28:47 | It would have been easy for him
to go to a gun show and purchase
one without a background check.
|
| 00:28:53 | There are many things that can
be done.
|
| 00:28:56 | And in my opinion, and ingabby'
s
opinion, this is one of the most
important things that we must do
to prevent terrorists,
criminals, and the mentally ill
from having access to guns.
|
| 00:29:08 | Closing loopholes and requiring
private sellers to require a
background check to transfer a
gun, for us, I cannot think of
something that would make our
country safer than doing just
that.
|
| 00:29:24 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:29:27 | In 1999, you testified before
the house judiciary committee,
and you testified "nobody is
more committed than we are and
to keeping guns out of criminal
hands.
|
| 00:29:36 | "
I assume you are still committed
to that endeavor, correct?
|
| 00:29:45 | >> Correct.
|
| 00:29:46 | >> And do you agree that we
should prosecute and help get
those criminals to get done?
|
| 00:29:55 | -- Get guns?
|
| 00:30:05 | >> If you're talking
straw man sales, we have said
they should be prosecuted for
years.
|
| 00:30:09 | >> You agree that we should help
catch criminals who get guns?
|
| 00:30:10 | >> If they are doing a straw man
sale, they should be prosecuted.
|
| 00:30:14 | Absolutely.
|
| 00:30:18 | >> And you have instead of
background checks at gun sales
and gun shows, no background
checks for anyone.
|
| 00:30:32 | Statistics show that nearly 2
million convicted criminals have
tried to buy firearms and were
prevented.
|
| 00:30:49 | Do you still, as you did in
1999, still support mandatory
background checks at gun shows?
|
| 00:30:52 | Yes or no?
|
| 00:30:58 | >> We support the national check
system on dealers.
|
| 00:31:02 | We were here when one of your
colleagues held the hearings in
terms of who would be a dealer
and who would be required to
have a license.
|
| 00:31:12 | If you did it for live the good
and profit, yes.
|
| 00:31:16 | If you did it for a hobby, no.
|
| 00:31:18 | >> Let's make easy.
|
| 00:31:20 | I'm talking about gun shows.
|
| 00:31:20 | Should we have mandatory
background checks at gun shows
for sales of weapons?
|
| 00:31:22 | >> If you are a dealer, that is
already the law.
|
| 00:31:24 | >> That is not my question.
|
| 00:31:26 | Please, I'm not trying to play
games.
|
| 00:31:28 | If you could, just answer my
question.
|
| 00:31:35 | >> I do not believe the way the
lot is working now,
unfortunately, that it does any
good to extend the law to
private sale between hobbyists
and collectors.
|
| 00:31:53 | >> You do not support background
checks in all instances at gun
shows?
|
| 00:31:57 | >> We do not, because the fact
is, the law right now is a
failure the way it is working.
|
| 00:32:08 | You have 76,000 people that have
been denied under the present
law.
|
| 00:32:10 | Only 44 were prosecuted.
|
| 00:32:11 | You are letting them go.
|
| 00:32:12 | They're walking the street.
|
| 00:32:14 | >> Back in 1999, you said no
loopholes anywhere for anyone.
|
| 00:32:19 | But now you do not support a
background checks for all buyers
of firearms?
|
| 00:32:23 | >> The system the way it is
working now is a failure.
|
| 00:32:28 | This administration is not
prosecuting the people they
catch.
|
| 00:32:34 | 23 States are not even putting
the mental records of those
adjudicated incompetent into the
system.
|
| 00:32:40 | If they try to buy a gun, even
if you catch them, and they try
to walk away, you let them.
|
| 00:32:45 | They are criminals, homicidal
maniacs
and mentally ill.
|
| 00:32:53 | We all know that, maniacs and
the mentally insane do not abide
by the law.
|
| 00:32:59 | >> My time is up.
|
| 00:33:00 | With all due respect, that is
not a question I asked.
|
| 00:33:03 | Nor did you answer it.
|
| 00:33:06 | >> But I think it is the answer.
|
| 00:33:08 | I honestly do.
|
| 00:33:09 | >> It is your testimony, senator
grassley.
|
| 00:33:15 | >> Before I ask a question,
senator hatch asked if I would
explain to everyone here why he
left.
|
| 00:33:28 | He is a member of the financial
committee and he has to be there
for that.
|
| 00:33:35 | Professor kappel, was the 1994
assault weapons ban effective in
recing n-violence?
|
| 00:33:44 | And secondly, is there any
reason for reenacting an assault
weapons ban?
|
| 00:33:56 | >> Based on the department of
justice study, the answer was
no.
|
| 00:33:59 | It was something that was tried
with great sincerity.
|
| 00:34:03 | A lot of people thought it would
be a good idea.
|
| 00:34:05 | But it did not seem to save any
lives.
|
| 00:34:14 | Not that the researchers could
find.
|
| 00:34:17 | The revised law is just more of
the same, but it suffers from
the same fundamental problem.
|
| 00:34:21 | You can have a 1994 law that
list some guns by name and a
2013 law that lists more guns by
name, but the very fact that you
are listing them by name and
banning them, that is an example
of how the law does not address
the guns fire power their rate
of fire.
|
| 00:34:40 | If there is something that makes
these guns more dangerous, then
legislation ought to be able to
identify that in mutual terms.
|
| 00:34:51 | The present bill, like its 1994
predecessor, also has outlawed
things based on various
features.
|
| 00:35:01 | These are not things that have
to do with internal mechanics of
the gun, how fast it fires, or
powerful the bullets are.
|
| 00:35:12 | There are things like a rifle
with a forward grip.
|
| 00:35:19 | The forward grip on the rifle
helps the user stabilize it and
make it more accurate, so that
if you are deer hunting, the
second shot is almost as
accurate as the first --
or if you are target shooting.
|
| 00:35:30 | Or most important, if you are
engaged in lawful self-defense.
|
| 00:35:37 | That is why they are issued as
standard in police cars all over
the country, because they make
the gun more accurate for the
core purpose of the second
amendment, which is lawful self-
defense.
|
| 00:35:50 | >> Chief johnson and professor
kopel, listen while I ask each
of you a question.
|
| 00:35:56 | Recently, an article was written
and in it, a bipartisan group of
elected sheriffs and police
chiefs offered a candid
assessments of current
legislative proposals.
|
| 00:36:08 | One chief of police stated, "i
think banning assault weapons
and high-capacity magazines is
strictly a feel-good measure and
"
instead, they ask for options
for getting mentally ill
individuals treatment.
|
| 00:36:25 | Chief clark in iowa added, "we
identified some that are
mentally ill.
|
| 00:36:32 | They need treatment.
|
| 00:36:39 | But we cannot access the
"
chief johnson, what options do
your officers have?
|
| 00:36:46 | I quoted iowa, but what options
do you currently have to deal
with mental illness?
|
| 00:36:58 | >> It is a major problem in
america today, and in my
jusdiction.
|
| 00:37:04 | I'm here to talk about ways to
stop gun violence.
|
| 00:37:10 | We know that banning high-
capacity magazines will make our
police officers savers --
safer.
|
| 00:37:17 | We have lost dozens of police
officers in america do to
assault weapons.
|
| 00:37:28 | And we have seen tragedy's all
across this great nation in many
cities.
|
| 00:37:33 | An off-duty police officer --
you are never off duty --
shot down by an assault weapon.
|
| 00:37:38 | It it must be addressed.
|
| 00:37:40 | >> You wrote an article last
week and I would like to have
that included in the record.
|
| 00:37:51 | Is there a change to civil laws
that could play a part in mass
shootings?
|
| 00:37:58 | And what can we do to keep guns
away from the mentally ill and
consistent with second
amendment?
|
| 00:38:10 | >> Consistently, they played
roles in homicide.
|
| 00:38:12 | According to the department of
justice research, about one
sixth of the people in state
prisons for homicide are
mentally ill.
|
| 00:38:20 | If you look at these mass
murders where suicidal people
try to end their lives in the
most infamous way possible, in
tucson, virginia tech, newtown,
aurora, you have a strong threat
of mental illness running
through debt.
|
| 00:38:38 | And certainly, approving the
background check, the data about
mental health adjudication, not
just a psychiatrist
recommendation, but what do
process and the constitution
require, which is an
adjudication, a fair decision by
a decision maker.
|
| 00:39:04 | Getting those things into the
background check is something
that congress started working on
after virginia tech, and there's
more progress to be made.
|
| 00:39:11 | It is not just a matter of
checks.
|
| 00:39:13 | Even with the most ideal
checking system in the world,
you have to imagine that they
could not get a gun anywhere
else.
|
| 00:39:26 | Adam lanza did not have a
background check.
|
| 00:39:30 | He took the gun after murdering
his mother.
|
| 00:39:33 | The long-term solution is
addressing the question of how
they are on the streets in the
first place.
|
| 00:39:41 | Laws were changed decades ago
because they were sometimes
abused, but I think we can move
back to a more sensible position
that strongly deals with the due
process rights, but also get
people off the streets.
|
| 00:40:00 | It will cost money at the state
level, but greatly saved in the
long term through reduced
incarceration costs for crimes.
|
| 00:40:07 | >> Your testimony discussed the
need for women to be able to
defend themselves and their
families.
|
| 00:40:15 | The law currently permits the
lawful possession of
semiautomatic rifles such as the
ar-15.
|
| 00:40:21 | Can you tell me why you believe
a semiautomatic rifle such as
the ar-15 has taught you as a
weapon of self-defense?
|
| 00:40:43 | >> The guns are accurate.
|
| 00:40:45 | They are light and easy to hold
and most importantly, their
appearance.
|
| 00:40:57 | An assault weapon in the hand of
a young woman defending her
babies at her home becomes a
defense weapon.
|
| 00:41:04 | And a peace of mind that she has
as she is facing multiple
intruders into her home with her
children screaming into the
background, the peace of mind
she has knowing that she has a
scary looking gun
that helps her to defend
herself.
|
| 00:41:36 | If you banned these weapons, you
are pretty women had a great
-- you are putting women at a
great
disadvantage, more so than men.
|
| 00:41:50 | And these are not criminals.
|
| 00:41:51 | They are young women and they're
not used to violent
confrontation.
|
| 00:41:55 | I speak on behalf of millions of
american women across the
country who urge you to defend
our second amendment right to
choose to defend ourselves.
|
| 00:42:01 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:42:03 | >> Thank you for holding this
hearing.
|
| 00:42:08 | I want to thank everybody for
being here, even you, mr.
|
| 00:42:11 | Lapierre.
|
| 00:42:21 | We tangoed, what was it, 18
years ago?
|
| 00:42:23 | You are looking pretty good
[laughter]
I would like to add something to
the record.
|
| 00:42:31 | Page 44 of the department of
justice report of assault
weapons as a percentage of gun
traces.
|
| 00:42:43 | It shows a 70% decline from
1992-1993 through 2001-02.
|
| 00:42:51 | >> No objection.
|
| 00:42:52 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:42:53 | Chief johnston, I would like to
talk with you.
|
| 00:42:59 | I am very grateful for the
support of your organization,
e major chiefs.
|
| 00:43:11 | As well as the trauma surgeons
to see what these guns do in
tearing apart bodies.
|
| 00:43:15 | I have become very concerned as
I looked at the bill before in
1993, at the technological
improvement in these weapons
over these years.
|
| 00:43:29 | One of the things we have tried
to do in this new bill is
prevent that from happening in
the future.
|
| 00:43:39 | In looking at the ar-15 magazine
on a device, which is legal,
called a slide fire, I note that
with practice, a shooter may
control his rate of fire from
400 rounds to 800 rounds per
minute, or shoot two, three, or
four rounds at a time and just
as easily fire single shots.
|
| 00:44:00 | It apparently is versatile.
|
| 00:44:04 | It is easy to use, but has
tremendous velocity and
tremendous killing power.
|
| 00:44:25 | I suspect, tears young bodies
apart.
|
| 00:44:27 | And I suspect initially that the
suspect's mother in new town
gave this gun to her son.
|
| 00:44:30 | Is that correct?
|
| 00:44:32 | >> These guns were accessible in
the home of the shooter.
|
| 00:44:40 | It is a major problem, security
of weapons.
|
| 00:44:46 | In my jurisdiction, two school
shootings.
|
| 00:44:49 | Safety and security of weapons
would have made different in
that case.
|
| 00:44:57 | Senator I applaud you for
including the safety and
security measure in your bill.
|
| 00:45:01 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:45:02 | This is such a hard debate.
|
| 00:45:05 | People how such fixed positions.
|
| 00:45:08 | Police, I think, see killings as
they are.
|
| 00:45:13 | Many people do not.
|
| 00:45:19 | In a sense, the streets speak
about this issue.
|
| 00:45:24 | These guns fall into the hands
of the wrong people.
|
| 00:45:38 | It is my understanding that mrs.
|
| 00:45:39 | Lanza's son, the shooter in this
case, have no mental health
record.
|
| 00:45:41 | Is that correct?
|
| 00:45:43 | >> It is my understanding that
no record exists.
|
| 00:45:46 | It is my understanding that
there was ample evidence,
though, amongst those close to
him that there was a serious
problem.
|
| 00:45:59 | >> Which is something I think we
need to tackle today.
|
| 00:46:04 | Mental health laws are usually
the preserve of the state and
local government.
|
| 00:46:14 | They provide the facilities.
|
| 00:46:15 | Do you have any suggestions with
respect to anything we might be
able to do to improve mental
health laws nationally, which
might catch people who are a
danger to themselves or others
in this area?
|
| 00:46:37 | >> This is a major problem for
law enforcement.
|
| 00:46:39 | Citizens, police officers,
doctors, parents can petition
for an emergency evaluation when
they see an individual is a
danger to themselves or others.
|
| 00:46:48 | It is important that we all do
this.
|
| 00:46:52 | It is a tough decision, but
sometimes you have to make it
against your own son.
|
| 00:46:58 | It can affect their entire life,
but it has to be done.
|
| 00:47:01 | The improvement and is to be
made is that we can have this
information entered instantly
into a data system in the event
that an individual tries to go
out within 24 hours and get a
gun.
|
| 00:47:11 | Someone in wisconsin went into a
salon to shoot his wife.
|
| 00:47:18 | He wanted a gun fast.
|
| 00:47:19 | He was caught, emotional, out of
control.
|
| 00:47:21 | And he wanted to get it done
fast.
|
| 00:47:25 | The way you do that is you reach
out outside the established a
background check requirements
and acquire it.
|
| 00:47:31 | That gun could have been
prevented from getting into the
hands of a person who will carry
that out in in high --
in a high emotional stage.
|
| 00:47:41 | This is really important.
|
| 00:47:44 | >> We have millions of big
clips.
|
| 00:47:54 | The aurora shooter used a 100-
round drum.
|
| 00:48:00 | Fortunately, it jammed, or it
would have killed more people.
|
| 00:48:02 | I think people believe that we
can have guards at schools.
|
| 00:48:05 | I am well aware that columbine
there was a deputy sheriff who
was armed, and actually took a
shot, but could not hit the
shooter there.
|
| 00:48:14 | The question comes, what do you
do about the morals?
|
| 00:48:19 | -- Malls?
|
| 00:48:22 | What do you do about the movie
theaters?
|
| 00:48:26 | What do you do about businesses?
|
| 00:48:32 | We cannot have a totally armed
society.
|
| 00:48:35 | That is my feeling, about the
need to say there are certain
categories of guns.
|
| 00:48:41 | We actually exempt over 2000
specific weapons by make and
model name and then ran about
158 assault weapons and go to a
one characteristic test.
|
| 00:48:52 | You have looked at this bill.
|
| 00:48:54 | Do you believe it will be
effective?
|
| 00:48:57 | >> Yes, ma'am, I do.
|
| 00:48:58 | I believe that addressing all of
the issues holistic lead in the
president's plan, as well as a
comprehensive, universal
background check procedure,
banning high-capacity magazines,
banning assault weapons,
collectively together will
create a system.
|
| 00:49:18 | The best way to stop a bad guy
from getting a gun in the first
place is a good background
check.
|
| 00:49:27 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:49:29 | >> As senator grassley noted,
senator hatch has to be gone.
|
| 00:49:33 | I will recognize him when he
comes back.
|
| 00:49:40 | We will go in seniority.
|
| 00:49:42 | I will go to senator sessions.
|
| 00:49:46 | All members can put statements
in the record by the close of
business today.
|
| 00:49:59 | >> Thank you, mr. chairman.
|
| 00:50:06 | Daud smith, the better part of
our career, I guess, prosecuting
attorney, and
during that high --
I gave emphasis to the gun
violations.
|
| 00:50:16 | We were one of the top
prosecuting districts in the
country.
|
| 00:50:23 | In the latest university of
syracuse report, they list my
district, the southern district
of alabama as number one in the
nation today in prosecutions of
gun violations.
|
| 00:50:39 | This is what the university of
syracuse study said, however, in
its lead comment.
|
| 00:50:46 | Weapons prosecution's declined
to the lowest level in a decade
the latest available data from
the justice department shows
that during january, 2011, the
government reported 484 new
weapons prosecutions.
|
| 00:50:59 | This is the lowest level to
which prosecutions federally
have fallen since january, 2001,
at the time that president bush
assumed office.
|
| 00:51:14 | They go on to note some of the
declines in various categories.
|
| 00:51:18 | First and foremost, I would say
to you, as someone who has
personally tried a lot of these
cases before a jury, written
appellate briefs on these cases,
that these are the bread and
butter criminal cases, felons in
possession of a firearm, and
carrying a firearm during a
crime, both of which are serious
offenses.
|
| 00:51:41 | Carrying a firearm during a
crime during violent or other
serious crimes is a mandatory
five-year sentence without
parole.
|
| 00:51:50 | Those prosecutions have
declined, unfortunately, under
president obama's presidency.
|
| 00:51:55 | Does it concern you, chief, that
federal prosecutions per month
in 2011 compared to those in
2010, the number of filings went
8%
from 2006 in federal court.
|
| 00:52:18 | Does that concern you?
|
| 00:52:20 | >> I can tell you that in the
baltimore police department --
>> I'm asking if those numbers
concern you.
|
| 00:52:27 | >> No, because you are not
including local prosecutions.
|
| 00:52:31 | I cannot stand here and tell you
of a single case in baltimore
county where a gun was involved
that was not prosecuted.
|
| 00:52:39 | >> Are we trying to pass a state
or federal law today?
|
| 00:52:44 | It is a federal law we are
trying to enforce.
|
| 00:52:57 | And with regard to the crimes of
carrying a firearm during the
violence or drug trafficking
offense, those prosecutions
declined.
|
| 00:53:07 | .5%.
|
| 00:53:14 | I would say that, first, we need
to make sure we are doing our
job.
|
| 00:53:18 | I would also note that although
crime is a very important
matter, we should never lose our
emphasis on bringing down crime.
|
| 00:53:27 | The murder rate in america today
is half what it was in 1993.
|
| 00:53:31 | We have made progress on that.
|
| 00:53:33 | And we can continue to drive
those numbers down.
|
| 00:53:37 | It is not as if we have an
unusual surge in violent crime
in america.
|
| 00:53:43 | With regard to background checks
and straw purchases, let's be
frank.
|
| 00:53:52 | Straw purchases are a problem
and should be prosecuted.
|
| 00:53:57 | I have prosecuted those cases
before on a number of occasions.
|
| 00:54:02 | I have prosecuted gun dealers
who fail to keep records as
required by the law.
|
| 00:54:08 | But the number of defendants
charged under the 18usc926
regarding the lawfulness of a
transfer have declined from 459
in 2004 to 218 in 2010.
|
| 00:54:29 | That is about a 52% decline
under this administration is
leadership.
|
| 00:54:35 | I would say to you,
mathematically speaking,
violence in america is impacted
mostly when you are in forcing
--
enforcing these bread and butter
violations that are proven to
work.
|
| 00:54:57 | I think everybody supports these
strong laws.
|
| 00:55:01 | That is where the rubber meets
the road.
|
| 00:55:07 | That is where you really begin
to impact crime.
|
| 00:55:09 | If you can intimidate --
and I believe the word is
getting out.
|
| 00:55:14 | It did in our district.
|
| 00:55:15 | If you carry a gun in a crime, a
drug dealing offense, you can be
prosecuted in federal court,
given five years in jail without
parole.
|
| 00:55:23 | We saw a decline in the violence
rate and the number of drug
dealers and criminals carrying
guns.
|
| 00:55:31 | But you have to prosecute those
cases.
|
| 00:55:35 | lapierre, it does appear
that the straw purchase
prohibition that is out there,
that prohibition seems to me to
be legitimate.
|
| 00:55:50 | And I support --
and you said you support the
prosecutions of it.
|
| 00:55:57 | But if we expand the number of
people covered, and we do not
have any prosecutions --
I believe you said there were
only 44.
|
| 00:56:06 | That is the weakness in the
system.
|
| 00:56:19 | >> Senator, there needs to be a
change in the culture of
prosecution at the entire
federal level.
|
| 00:56:23 | It is a disgrace.
|
| 00:56:25 | We could dramatically cut crimes
with guns and save lives all
over this country if we were to
start enforcing the 9000 federal
laws we have on the books.
|
| 00:56:35 | I'm talking about drug dealers
with guns, gangs with guns,
felons with guns.
|
| 00:56:40 | The numbers are shocking.
|
| 00:56:42 | In chicago, one of the worst
areas in the country for a gun
violence by criminals cannot --
for gun violence by criminals,
it is 89 in 90.
|
| 00:56:54 | In the entire united states, 62
people prosecuted under all of
the federal gun laws.
|
| 00:56:59 | In the project to clean of
richmond years ago, they did 350
cases in richmond.
|
| 00:57:03 | If you want to stop crime,
interdict the violent criminals.
|
| 00:57:07 | Get them off the street.
|
| 00:57:10 | >> Richmond was a great model.
|
| 00:57:13 | I would call on president obama
to call in the attorney general
eric holder and ask him why the
prosecutions have dropped
dramatically across all
categories of federal gun laws,
and he should call in the u.s.
|
| 00:57:28 | Attorney's and tell them to look
at the numbers and get them up
and emphasize these
prosecutions.
|
| 00:57:43 | >> Senator schumer.
|
| 00:57:45 | >> First, let me apologize to
the witnesses.
|
| 00:57:49 | We have a finance committee
meeting on reconciliation, which
probably affects our police
chief anay, so I had to be
there.
|
| 00:57:57 | I want to thank you, chairman
leahy, for organizing this
important hearing.
|
| 00:58:03 | I want to thank the witnesses,
particularly congresswoman
giffords and your husband, mark
kelly.
|
| 00:58:14 | By being here instead of cursing
the darkness you are lighting a
candle.
|
| 00:58:19 | Thank you.
|
| 00:58:21 | I do believe that we have a
chance to do something
reasonable in the aftermath of
the sandy hook tragedy.
|
| 00:58:37 | But when we discuss ways to stop
violence, guns must be included
in that discussion.
|
| 00:58:40 | I heard ranking member grassley
say we must go beyond guns.
|
| 00:58:43 | That is true.
|
| 00:58:45 | But we must include guns as well
not including guns when
discussing mass killings is like
not including cigarettes when
discussing lung cancer.
|
| 00:58:53 | But the same time, I agree.
|
| 00:58:55 | We cannot play the usum
zero political game on guns, or
the moment will pass us by.
|
| 00:59:16 | We cannot play the same zero sum
game on guns, or the moment will
pass us by.
|
| 00:59:23 | The american government will
never take away america's guns.
|
| 00:59:25 | Americans need not to accept
this provision, but endorse it.
|
| 00:59:29 | You cannot argue for an
expansive reading of amendments
like the first, fourth, and
faith, but see the second
amendment to the panel of saying
it only affects militias.
|
| 00:59:44 | At theame time, those on the
pro-gun side must recognize that
no amendment is absolute.
|
| 00:59:55 | The first amendment protects
freedom of speech.
|
| 00:59:59 | It is hollow.
|
| 01:00:01 | You still cannot falsely shouts
fire in a crowded theater.
|
| 01:00:03 | The second amendment has
sensible limits, too.
|
| 01:00:06 | My colleagues have offered a
range of impressive and
thoughtful proposals on the
topic of gun violence.
|
| 01:00:18 | Chairman leia he has introduced
a bill on trafficking.
|
| 01:00:21 | Senator feinstein has introduced
one of assault weapons.
|
| 01:00:28 | For the last several years, my
focus has been on gun ownership
and background checks.
|
| 01:00:32 | Universal background checks is a
proven, effective step we can
take to reduce gun violence.
|
| 01:00:42 | And I believe it has a good
chance of passing.
|
| 01:00:49 | Federally licensed firearms
dealers have been required to
conduct background checks on
prospective gun purchasers since
we passed the brady bill.
|
| 01:01:00 | We have seen that they work.
|
| 01:01:01 | Since 19the federal
background check system has
7 million prohibited
purchasers from buying firearms
at federally licensed dealers.
|
| 01:01:11 | Yes, we should prosecute them.
|
| 01:01:14 | But the number one goal is to
prevent a felon from getting a
gun in the first place.
|
| 01:01:19 | 7
million times.
|
| 01:01:22 | The current system works well.
|
| 01:01:24 | But there are some glaring
holes.
|
| 01:01:27 | First, not all gun sales are
covered by a background check.
|
| 01:01:29 | The problem, sometimes referred
to as the gun show loophole
companies that a private seller
could set up a tent at a gun
show or somewhere else and not
have to conduct a background
check on its purchasers.
|
| 01:01:39 | 48% Of gun sales are made
without a background check.
|
| 01:01:44 | You are a felon, a gun
trafficker, a mentally ill
person, you know you can go to a
gun show and not have any
checks.
|
| 01:01:53 | Of course, that is what they do.
|
| 01:01:54 | This is not fair.
|
| 01:02:01 | And also to dealers who follow
the rules and conduct checks.
|
| 01:02:03 | Why should someone going to a
gun show have a different rules?
|
| 01:02:05 | There is no logic to it.
|
| 01:02:10 | I was the author of the brady
bill, and that was something we
were forced to put into the bill
as a way to get the bill passed.
|
| 01:02:15 | But the last 15 years has proven
it does not make sense.
|
| 01:02:25 | The second problem with the
current system is that not all
records are fed into the system.
|
| 01:02:30 | This is especially true with
mental health records.
|
| 01:02:41 | 19 States have submitted to
fewer than 100 mental health
records to nix.
|
| 01:02:44 | I think we can get bipartisan
agreement on a bill that solves
these two problems by doing two
things print one, it will
prevent felons and the mentally
ill from getting guns by
requiring a background check
before all purchases, and two, i
will get relevant records into
the system.
|
| 01:03:01 | Right now as we meet here today,
I'm having productive
conversations with colleagues on
both sides of the aisle,
including a good number with
high nra ratings.
|
| 01:03:11 | And I'm hopeful that we are
close to having legislation we
can introduce.
|
| 01:03:14 | And I would urge the nra, mr.
|
| 01:03:15 | Lapierre, and other gun advocacy
groups to work with us on this
proposal.
|
| 01:03:21 | The nra supported of our 2007
legislation that improved the
background check system.
|
| 01:03:25 | I hoping they will try to do
that again.
|
| 01:03:27 | It is a simple, straightforward
solution, one the american
people support.
|
| 01:03:31 | A recent survey by the new
england journal of medicine
found 90% of republicans, 74% of
nra members support requiring
background checks for all gun
sales.
|
| 01:03:49 | I understand that because we
have not introduced it I cannot
ask the witness is about it.
|
| 01:03:58 | But I can tell you what it will
not do.
|
| 01:04:00 | It will not create a gun
registry.
|
| 01:04:02 | That is already illegal and is
repeatedly illegal in our law.
|
| 01:04:04 | And it will not allow you to bar
your relatives hunting rifle or
share a gun at a gun range.
|
| 01:04:09 | It will include a reasonable
exceptions to background checks
for bonafide sales and
transfers.
|
| 01:04:21 | Checks and sales are a tactic.
|
| 01:04:22 | Do you agree with the logic that
we should prosecute people who
illegally tried to buy guns?
|
| 01:04:27 | But even without that, the law
has done a lot of good because
people who are felons or
adjudicated mentally ill,
millions have topped from
buying guns and getting
guidance.
|
| 01:04:46 | -- Gettinguns.
|
| 01:04:51 | >> Since 1994 through 2009, the
record is clear.
|
| 01:04:53 | It is a fact that nearly 2
million prohibited purchases
were stopped.
|
| 01:04:57 | And god only knows what they
would have done with those
weapons had not been for that
particular law.
|
| 01:05:06 | >> We want to do both, but
wouldn't we rather stop them
from having a gun than after
they should someone or buy a gun
illegally, then arrest them and
put them in jail?
|
| 01:05:14 | >> Yes, sir.
|
| 01:05:16 | And you how to address the
pathology of how you get the gun
in the first place.
|
| 01:05:26 | That is what we are trying to
achieve by universal background
check.
|
| 01:05:29 | I am proud to stand before you
this morning to let you know
that every member of our
organization supports background
checks.
|
| 01:05:37 | The >> and does it make any
sense to exclude the same people
who sell them in a gun shop, or
others to go to a gun show and
not have a background check of
all?
|
| 01:05:49 | >> It is insane.
|
| 01:05:54 | It is like letting 40% of the
people just passed the tsa
checkpoint at an airport.
|
| 01:05:58 | It is not an inconvenience.
|
| 01:06:00 | The record shows that nearly 92%
of the individuals that tried to
do begun background check out a
gun shop, in a minute and a
half, they are done.
|
| 01:06:07 | I cannot write a citation in a
minute and a half.
|
| 01:06:14 | Even with technology I cannot do
it that fast.
|
| 01:06:16 | It is not inconvenient.
|
| 01:06:17 | And it is unfair to a shop
owner, too.
|
| 01:06:20 | Why impose more restrictions on
a federally licensed dealer down
on anyone else?
|
| 01:06:31 | And if you can sell a gun to
your neighbor that you have
known for 10 years, you do not
know your neighbor.
|
| 01:06:35 | The only way to make sure that
what you're doing is safe is a
comprehensive background check.
|
| 01:06:40 | >> One final question.
|
| 01:06:41 | Many police officers are avid
sportsman.
|
| 01:06:46 | They enjoy shooting not in their
professional official duties.
|
| 01:06:50 | The majority of gun owners,
surveys show, are for gun back
-- background checks.
|
| 01:07:05 | >> My experience shows that
every member of the nra supports
a dock project.
|
| 01:07:10 | I loved to hunt.
|
| 01:07:10 | I own several guns.
|
| 01:07:11 | I love going to the range with
my son who is a police officer
today.
|
| 01:07:19 | >> Senator gramm has graciously
let senator cornyn go.
|
| 01:07:30 | Please, senator cornyn.
|
| 01:07:40 | >> Thank you all the witnesses
for being here today.
|
| 01:07:42 | Particularly to congresswoman
giffords for being here and
speaking so forcefully.
|
| 01:07:46 | I hope this serves as a starting
point for us to consider a range
of ideas on this topic.
|
| 01:07:52 | Anything that falls short of
serious examination and
discussion is window dressing.
|
| 01:07:56 | It is just symbolism over
substance.
|
| 01:08:00 | I have a hard time telling my
constituents in taxes that
-- in exas that
congress is looking at passing a
raft of new laws when the laws
we currently have on the books
are so not enforced.
|
| 01:08:18 | I think we need to do what we
can to address the shortcomings
in mental health care, as well
as background checks mechanisms
we used to screen out prohibited
gun buyers.
|
| 01:08:31 | We need to ask what the years of
the institutionalization of the
mentally ill have done for the
safety of the american public.
|
| 01:08:44 | We need to ask about people who
are subjected to a court order
to outpatient mental health
treatment.
|
| 01:08:50 | Tens of millions are falling to
the cracks and surely, we can
agree that more needs to be done
to enforce existing gun la.
|
| 01:09:08 | The gun prosecutions are down
across the board.
|
| 01:09:11 | chairman, I hope we will
have a follow-up hearing to ask
administration witnesses to come
before the panel and testify why
agencies of government are not
enforcing laws that congress has
already passed.
|
| 01:09:26 | It is worth noting that five
years ago, congress was asking
the same questions we are asking
right now.
|
| 01:09:31 | In 2008, there was an attempt
made to strengthen the
background check clause
following the murders of
virginia tech prepared --
the background check laws
following the murders at
virginia tech.
|
| 01:09:44 | Did those laws work?
|
| 01:09:46 | Just last july, it was given
mixed reviews.
|
| 01:09:52 | Only a handful of states have
taken seriously the
responsibility to share mental
health records.
|
| 01:10:02 | And I'm pleased that texas has
been highlighted by the gao has
outperforming other states in
this area, but we have a long
way to go.
|
| 01:10:08 | I think there are areas where we
can come together right now,
examine the nexus between gun
crime, violence, and mental
health care.
|
| 01:10:17 | I'm willing to listen to serious
ideas, not just window dressing,
to come up with solutions.
|
| 01:10:22 | kelly, I noticed in your
testimony you alluded to part of
what I talked about, which is
the fact that at the time in
arizona their 121,000 records of
disqualifying mental illness for
people in arizona who had not
been subjected to background
checks because the state had not
send that information to the
federal government.
|
| 01:10:45 | Could you expand on the
significance?
|
| 01:10:51 | >> In the case of jared
loughner, a person who shot my
wife and murdered six of her
constituents, he was clearly
mentally ill.
|
| 01:10:59 | He was expelled from the local
community college because of
that.
|
| 01:11:04 | His parents and his school did
not send him anywhere to be
adjudicated or evaluated with
regard to his mental illness.
|
| 01:11:17 | lapierre earlier tried to
make the point that criminals do
not submit to the background
checks.
|
| 01:11:23 | Jared loughner, the tucson
shooter, was an admitted drug
user.
|
| 01:11:29 | He was rejected from the u.s.
|
| 01:11:31 | Army because of his drug use.
|
| 01:11:33 | He was clearly mentally ill.
|
| 01:11:34 | And when he purchased the gun in
november, his plan was to
assassinate my wife and commit
mass murder at that safeway in
tucson.
|
| 01:11:44 | He was a criminal.
|
| 01:11:46 | Because of his drug use and
because of what he was planning
on doing.
|
| 01:11:52 | But because of these gaps in the
mental health system --
now, in this case, the 121,000
records, I admit, did not
include a record on him.
|
| 01:12:01 | But it could have.
|
| 01:12:03 | And if it did, he would have
failed that background cck.
|
| 01:12:09 | Obviously, in this case, he
would have likely have gone to a
gun show or a private seller and
avoided a background check.
|
| 01:12:16 | But if we close the gun show
loophole, if we require private
sellers to complete a background
check and we get those 121,000
records and others into the
system, we will prevent gun
crimes.
|
| 01:12:32 | That is an absolute truth.
|
| 01:12:33 | It would have happened in
tucson.
|
| 01:12:39 | My wife would not be sitting in
this seat.
|
| 01:12:42 | She would not have been sitting
here today if we had a strong
background checks.
|
| 01:12:45 | lapierre, you talk about
a laws already on the books the
fact that the federal government
has a poor record of enforcing
laws.
|
| 01:12:55 | I fail to see out that the
justice department will not in
force will make the world any
safer.
|
| 01:13:00 | From 2007-11, the department of
justice charged 13% fewer total
firearms cases.
|
| 01:13:14 | In each of the years during that
span, the current
administration's brought fewer
firearms prosecution's than the
year before.
|
| 01:13:20 | In january, 2011, only 484
prosecutions were initiated by
the department of justice, the
fewest number of prosecutions in
10 years.
|
| 01:13:28 | As far as 2006-10, the number of
investigations for unlawful
possession decrease 26%.
|
| 01:13:43 | During the same time friend, 76%
fewer cases were referred to
tabc for prosecution.
|
| 01:13:52 | Of the cases the fbi referred
for prosecution, just 13 cases
were prosecuted.
|
| 01:14:05 | Would you care to comment?
|
| 01:14:16 | >> In the shadow of everyone's
noses of this building, right
now, there are drug dealers and
violating the law.
|
| 01:14:33 | There is all kinds of drugs
being sold, trafficking young
girls.
|
| 01:14:37 | And it goes on day after day.
|
| 01:14:38 | We've got to interdict these
people, get them off the street
before they get to the next
crime scene.
|
| 01:14:44 | The fact is, the nra has been
trying for 20 something years.
|
| 01:14:50 | The senator schumer went back
and forth with me on "face the
nation" where I asked if he
would help get the mentally
incompetent adjudicated and into
the system.
|
| 01:14:59 | He said yes, but they are still
not in the system.
|
| 01:15:09 | My point is, even if you turn
out someone on the instant
check, it is a mentally ill
person " for a felon, as long as
you are --
a mentally ill person or a
felon, as long as you let them
go, you are keeping them from
getting a gun.
|
| 01:15:21 | The problem with gun laws,
criminals do not cooperate with
them.
|
| 01:15:28 | The mentally ill do not
cooperate with them.
|
| 01:15:30 | You've got to interdict,
incarcerate, get them in
treatment, and do things that
matter.
|
| 01:15:39 | You have police officers in
schools, armed security in
schools.
|
| 01:15:43 | But let's do the things that
work.
|
| 01:15:46 | Let's get serious about this.
|
| 01:15:47 | This discussion, I sit here and
listen to it and my reaction is
that have little to do with
making the country safe and has
much to do with the decades-long
gun ban agenda.
|
| 01:16:04 | We do not even enforce the laws
when they are on the books.
|
| 01:16:06 | The attorney general of the
united states, eric holder,
during the richmond program, he
called it a cookie cutter
approach to solving crime.
|
| 01:16:14 | He did not have a lot of
enthusiasm about it.
|
| 01:16:21 | I remember senator sessions held
a hearing.
|
| 01:16:23 | The department of justice said
that a drug dealer with a gun is
a guppy and we cannot
concentrate on guppies.
|
| 01:16:33 | Those guppies are what are
ruining neighborhoods,
destroying lives, and killing
people.
|
| 01:16:38 | We've got to confront their
behavior and take them off the
street.
|
| 01:16:41 | They do not obey by all the laws
that we have now.
|
| 01:16:44 | We've got to get real with what
works and does not.
|
| 01:16:46 | My problem with background
checks is that you are never
going to get criminals to go
through universal background
checks.
|
| 01:16:55 | And of the law-abiding people,
you will create an enormous
federal bureaucracy, unfunded,
and people have to pay the fees,
pay the taxes.
|
| 01:17:11 | We do not even prosecute anybody
right now that goes through the
system we have.
|
| 01:17:14 | We will make all of those law-
abiding people go through the
system and then we will not
prosecute any of the bad guys if
they do catch one.
|
| 01:17:21 | None of it makes any sense in
the real world.
|
| 01:17:29 | We have 80,000 police families
in the nra.
|
| 01:17:36 | And we care about safety.
|
| 01:17:37 | We want what works.
|
| 01:17:38 | >> I'm trying to be fair to
everybody here.
|
| 01:17:40 | Certainly, you have more chances
to speak.
|
| 01:17:42 | >> That is the point.
|
| 01:17:43 | The criminals will not go to
purchase the guns because
there'll be a background check.
|
| 01:17:48 | It will stop them from original
purchase.
|
| 01:17:50 | You missed that point
completely.
|
| 01:17:53 | It is basic.
|
| 01:17:54 | [Applause]
>> senato, I think you missed
the point.
|
| 01:18:03 | >> There will be order.
|
| 01:18:05 | [Gavel]
there will be order in the
committee room.
|
| 01:18:12 | >> I'm going to give you a
chance.
|
| 01:18:15 | But let me say at the outset,
captain kelly, thank you.
|
| 01:18:20 | Thank you for bringing that
wonderful, brave wife of yours
today to remind us what victims
suffer from buy and --
from gun violence.
|
| 01:18:29 | What a heroic figure she is and
what a pillar you are to stand
by her during her
rehabilitation.
|
| 01:18:35 | We are so proud of her and of
view.
|
| 01:18:40 | And I say with some regret,
there should have been a hearing
just like this right after your
wife, one of our own, a member
of congress was shot point-blank
in the face at a town meeting in
tucson, arizona.
|
| 01:19:09 | I hope you will extend to her
our best wishes, love, and
support for what she is doing
today and what she has meant to
all of us for this long period
of time.
|
| 01:19:17 | I also want to say a word about
an incident.
|
| 01:19:22 | There was a young lady from
chicago, illinois, 15 years old.
|
| 01:19:25 | She attended a university prep
school in chicago, an honor
student, and she marched in the
inaugural parade last week.
|
| 01:19:39 | I can point to one gun store,
one store in illinois that
accounts for more than 20% of
the crimes in chicago.
|
| 01:19:55 | Straw purchasers buy the gun
there and they end up in the
hands of criminals in the city
of chicago.
|
| 01:20:27 | Almost one out of 10 guns in
chicago came to the city from
mississippi.
|
| 01:20:34 | Mississippi.
|
| 01:20:36 | Why?
|
| 01:20:40 | The background checks there,
the gun dealers there, or a lot
easier than in other places.
|
| 01:20:45 | They ended up selling these
guns and corrupting interstate
fields on the way.
|
| 01:20:53 | Here's the basics.
|
| 01:20:55 | I think we all agree and I hope
we all agree that the supreme
court decision said that we can
have reasonable limitation on
the second amendment right and
terms of the type of weapon and
the people who own them and the
background checks on those
people.
|
| 01:21:11 | It is something that we
desperately need to do.
|
| 01:21:14 | We know that 40% of the sales
are not going through the
background checks.
|
| 01:21:19 | That is a huge problem.
|
| 01:21:23 | It has created an abundance of
weapons that are available.
|
| 01:21:28 | In the straw purchases, i
salute the chairman for
addressing this issue.
|
| 01:21:31 | It is one of the worst
situations in our estate and in
the city of chicago.
|
| 01:21:38 | I can point to one gun store in
illinois that accounts for more
than 20% of the crime guns in
chicago.
|
| 01:21:47 | Straw purchasers buy the gun
there and they end up in the
hands of criminals in the city
of chicago.
|
| 01:21:52 | We have to put an end to this.
|
| 01:21:55 | I'm going to ask a question to
the panelists.
|
| 01:21:58 | lapierre, I ran into some of
your members in illinois and
they tell me, you do not get the
second amendment.
|
| 01:22:05 | It is not just about hunting.
|
| 01:22:06 | It is not just about sports.
|
| 01:22:08 | It is not just about shooting
targets.
|
| 01:22:10 | It is not just about defending
ourselves from criminals, as ms.
|
| 01:22:13 | Trotter testified.
|
| 01:22:15 | We need the ability to protect
ourselves from our governments.
|
| 01:22:20 | From our government, from the
police, if they knock on our
doors and we need to fight back.
|
| 01:22:27 | Do you agree with that point of
view?
|
| 01:22:30 | >> If you look at what our
founding fathers put down there,
they had lived under the tyranny
of king george and wanted to
make sure these free people in
this new country would never be
subjugated again and live under
tyranny.
|
| 01:22:44 | I also think that what people
all over the country fear today
is being abandoned by their
government, if a tornado hits,
if a hurricane hits, if a riot
occurs.
|
| 01:22:54 | Then they will be out there
alone.
|
| 01:22:56 | The only way they will protect
themselves in the cold and dark,
when they are vulnerable, is
with a fire arm.
|
| 01:23:04 | That indicates how relevant and
essential the second amendment
is in today's society to
fundamental human survival.
|
| 01:23:11 | >> Chief johnson, you have heard
it.
|
| 01:23:14 | Some believe that citizens have
to have the firepower to fight
back against you.
|
| 01:23:19 | Against the government.
|
| 01:23:22 | How do you conduct your business
in enforcing the law, not
knowing what is behind that
door?
|
| 01:23:29 | >> I find it to be very scary,
creepy, simply just not based on
logic.
|
| 01:23:37 | Certainly, law enforcement
across the nation is well
prepared to deal with any
natural or man-made disaster
that would occur.
|
| 01:23:46 | Frankly, -- I cannot relate to
that kind of thinking.
|
| 01:23:50 | >> I cannot either.
|
| 01:23:52 | And I cannot think about the
need of that man in colorado
having 100 cartridges.
|
| 01:24:02 | Professor koppel, do you think
that it is necessary for
hunting, sports, target
practice, even self defense?
|
| 01:24:15 | >> It would be not legal for
hunting in most states where
there are limits on how many
rounds you can have in a
magazine.
|
| 01:24:26 | As I think you have recognized,
the second amendment is not
primarily about hunting.
|
| 01:24:30 | What I have been talking about
is what the supreme court said
in the district of columbia
versus heller, which is the
second amendment, the firearms
and their accessories which are
commonly owned by law-abiding
people for legitimate purposes.
|
| 01:24:49 | I am talking about what police
officers carry, what citizens
carry, semi-automatic handguns.
|
| 01:24:54 | >> But those are police
officers.
|
| 01:24:57 | >> They are not military,
they're not coming to attack
people, they are protecting
people.
|
| 01:25:05 | Citizens protect themselves the
same way the police officers do.
|
| 01:25:10 | >> If you can rationalize a 100-
round drum that someone can
strap onto a semi-automatic
weapon, as did in aurora,
colorado, killing dozens of
people there, saving lives only
because it jammed, then you
ought to object to the laws that
have been on the books for years
about machine guns.
|
| 01:25:34 | Why are they not allowed under
the second amendment?
|
| 01:25:36 | >> According to heller, they are
not commonly used by law-abiding
citizens for legitimate
purposes.
|
| 01:25:41 | >> And 100 magazines are?
|
| 01:25:45 | >> You are the one who wants to
talk about 100 magazines.
|
| 01:25:54 | Thank goodness he had a piece of
junk like that instead of
something better where he could
kill more people.
|
| 01:25:58 | >> That is what is all about?
|
| 01:26:00 | >> It is about saving lives with
ordinary magazines.
|
| 01:26:03 | 100 Magazines are not used by
police officers or hunters.
|
| 01:26:06 | What you are talking about
banning is normal magazines.
|
| 01:26:16 | >> The shooter in tucson showed
up with two 33-round magazines,
one of which was in his 9
millimeter.
|
| 01:26:27 | He unloaded the contents of that
magazine in 15 seconds.
|
| 01:26:28 | Very quickly.
|
| 01:26:31 | The first bullet went into
gabby's head.
|
| 01:26:33 | Bullet #13 went into a nine-year
old girl named christina taylor
green.
|
| 01:26:39 | She deserved a full life
committed to enhancing those
ideas.
|
| 01:26:48 | If he had a 10-round magazine --
let me back up.
|
| 01:26:52 | When he tried to reload one 33-
round magazine with another, he
dropped it.
|
| 01:26:58 | A woman named patricia grabbed
it, and it gave bystanders time
to tackle him.
|
| 01:27:04 | I contend, if that same thing
happened when he was trying to
reload one 10-round magazine
with another, meaning he did
not have access to a high-
capacity magazine, and the same
thing happened, christina taylor
green would be alive today.
|
| 01:27:24 | I am certainly willing to give
up my right on a high-capacity
magazine to bring that young
woman back, that young girl.
|
| 01:27:29 | Let me continue with what
happened that day.
|
| 01:27:37 | In that 15 seconds -- actually,
in the first shot, one man ran
out of walgreen's, a man with a
gun, with the intent to do the
right thing, an armed citizen.
|
| 01:27:47 | He admits he came within about
a half second of shooting the
man who tackled jared loughner,
nearly killing him.
|
| 01:28:03 | We almost had this horrific mass
murder followed up by an
horrific accident.
|
| 01:28:06 | The horrific mass murder
because of the high-capacity
magazine and the horrific
accident because of the armed
person there who, with good
intentions, wanted to end the
something that was going really
bad.
|
| 01:28:24 | >> Senator graham.
|
| 01:28:28 | >> Thank you, mr. chairman.
|
| 01:28:32 | I think I am speaking for a lot
of people when we say we are
heartbroken when a family member
is taken through an act of gun
violence, whether it be a child
or anyone else, but
particularly children.
|
| 01:28:44 | That is a heartbreaking episode
in society.
|
| 01:28:52 | I think most people would
appreciate the fact that there
are thousands, if not millions
of americans, that save their
families from home invasions or
violent assault because they had
a gun to protect themselves.
|
| 01:29:03 | Most of us are glad it ended
well for you.
|
| 01:29:12 | Those are the two bookends.
|
| 01:29:15 | You mentioned, captain kelly,
and I appreciate you being
here, appreciate your comments
about you and your wife being
reasonable people.
|
| 01:29:26 | I do not doubt that one bit.
|
| 01:29:27 | The question is, am I an
unreasonable american if i
oppose this bill?
|
| 01:29:29 | Am I an unreasonable american to
believe the constitution says
guns commonly used by the
population for legitimate
purposes?
|
| 01:29:37 | I do not want to own a gun to
attack my government.
|
| 01:29:39 | That is not what I think a
legitimate purpose is.
|
| 01:29:45 | Let's talk about a real world
incident that happened in
loganville, georgia in january
2012.
|
| 01:29:53 | One bullet in the hands of a
mentally ill person or a
convicted felon is one too many.
|
| 01:29:59 | Six bullets in the hands of a
mother protecting her twin 9
year-olds may not be enough.
|
| 01:30:12 | So I have a chart here.
|
| 01:30:14 | At the top is the 38 revolver.
|
| 01:30:17 | On the right is a 9 millimeter
pistol.
|
| 01:30:25 | That holds 15 rounds.
|
| 01:30:26 | Does everyone on the panel
agree that a convicted felon
should not have either one of
those guns?
|
| 01:30:40 | Does everybody agree that a
mentally unstable person should
not have either one of those
pistols?
|
| 01:30:44 | Ok, common ground there.
|
| 01:30:45 | Put yourself in the shoes of the
mother.
|
| 01:30:46 | A guy broke into the home, she
ran upstairs, hid in the
closet, she got on the phone
with police, and she was talking
with her husband in real time.
|
| 01:30:52 | The intruder broke into the
home, had a crowbar, and found
them in a closet.
|
| 01:31:01 | They were confronted face-to-
face.
|
| 01:31:06 | According to reports, her
husband said shoot.
|
| 01:31:13 | She emptied the gun, six shot
revolver.
|
| 01:31:25 | The guy was hit five of the six
times.
|
| 01:31:28 | He was able to still get up and
drive away.
|
| 01:31:29 | My question is, put your family
members in that situation.
|
| 01:31:31 | Would I be a reasonable american
to what my family to have the
15-round magazine and a semi-
automatic weapon to make sure,
if there are two intruders, she
does not run out of bullets?
|
| 01:31:45 | And I am on reasonable person
for saying in that situation
the 15-round magazine makes
sense?
|
| 01:31:59 | Well, I will say that I do not
believe I am.
|
| 01:32:02 | I will give you an example of
where a 15-round magazine could
make the difference between
protecting a family if there is
more than one attacker.
|
| 01:32:06 | kelly,
and the situation you described,
I do not want that person to
have one goal of oregon.
|
| 01:32:13 | The point of regulating
magazines is to interrupt the
shooter.
|
| 01:32:29 | I guess what I am saying is we
live in a role where there are
4 million high-capacity
magazines out there or more.
|
| 01:32:39 | The best way to interrupt the
shooter, if they come to a
school house, is not to deny the
moment an atlanta and the
ability to have more than 10
rounds, but to have somebody
like you, chief johnson, meet
them when they come to the door.
|
| 01:32:45 | That is the best way to do it.
|
| 01:32:48 | My good friend joe biden, who i
have spirited conversations
about a lot of things, was
talking to somebody in
california who mentioned the
fact, what if there is an
earthquake out here and there is
a lawless situation?
|
| 01:32:59 | In 1992, you had the riots in
los angeles.
|
| 01:33:03 | You could find yourself in a
lawless environment in this
country.
|
| 01:33:17 | The story was about a place
called koreatown.
|
| 01:33:27 | There are marauding gangs going
through the area burning stores,
looting and robbing.
|
| 01:33:29 | The vice-president said in
response to , he said, no,
you would be better off with a
12 gauge shotgun.
|
| 01:33:37 | That is his opinion, and i
respect it.
|
| 01:33:46 | I have an ar-15 at home and i
have not hurt anybody and I do
not intend to, but I would be
better off protecting my family
if there was law-and-order
breakdown in my neighborhood.
|
| 01:33:56 | I do not think that makes me an
unreasonable person.
|
| 01:33:59 | trotter when you say you
speak on behalf of millions of
women out there who believe an
ar-15 makes them safer, there
were a lot of giggles in the
room, and that explains the
dilemma.
|
| 01:34:11 | The people who were giggling
were saying to you, that is
crazy.
|
| 01:34:17 | Nobody I know thinks that way.
|
| 01:34:18 | Which reminds me of the harvard
professor who said I cannot
believe mcgovern lost.
|
| 01:34:22 | Everyone I knew voted for him.
|
| 01:34:24 | I bet there are people on our
side that cannot believe obama
won because everyone they know
voted against him.
|
| 01:34:31 | The point is, we have different
perspectives on this.
|
| 01:34:34 | The reason I will oppose the
legislation, chief johnston, is
because I respect what you do as
a law-enforcement officer.
|
| 01:34:45 | Has your budget been cut?
|
| 01:34:47 | >> Yes.
|
| 01:34:49 | >> Will it be cut in the future?
|
| 01:34:51 | >> I am optimistic that it is
not.
|
| 01:34:55 | >> Because of the fiscal state
of affairs we have, there will
be less police officers, not
more, over the next decade.
|
| 01:35:03 | Response time will be more, not
less.
|
| 01:35:09 | kelly, I really do want
to get guns out of the hands of
the wrong people.
|
| 01:35:12 | I honest to god believe that if
we arbitrarily say nobody in
this country can own a 10-round
magazine in the future, there
could be a situation where a
mother runs out of bullets
because of something we do here.
|
| 01:35:25 | I cannot prevent every bad
outcome, but I do know and
believe in the bottom of my
heart that I am not an
unreasonable person by saying
that in some circumstances the
15-round makes sense and in
other situations the ar-15 makes
sense.
|
| 01:36:09 | Do you agree with that?
|
| 01:36:32 | >> I think if we follow senator
schumer's approach and follow
the supreme court decision,
what that tells you is the core
of the second amendment is the
firearms and accessories that
are commonly owned by law-
abiding people for legitimate
purposes.
|
| 01:36:49 | >> Is it constitutional to say
10 vs 15?
|
| 01:36:50 | >> 10 Is plainly
unconstitutional.
|
| 01:36:55 | Magazines of up to 19 are common
on semiautomatic handguns.
|
| 01:37:02 | >> I do not know if 10 vs 19 is
common or uncommon.
|
| 01:37:08 | I do know that 10 versus 19 in
the hands of the wrong person is
a complete disaster.
|
| 01:37:15 | I do know that six bullets in
that hands of a woman trying to
defend her children may not be
enough.
|
| 01:37:23 | So I do not look at it from some
academic debate.
|
| 01:37:28 | Let's agree on one thing.
|
| 01:37:29 | One bullet in the hands of the
wrong person we should all try
to prevent.
|
| 01:37:31 | But when you start trying to
tell me that I am unreasonable
for wanting that woman to have
more than six bullets or to have
an ar-15 for people running
around my neighborhood, I reject
the concept.
|
| 01:37:53 | >> Thank you, senator.
|
| 01:37:54 | Senator whitehouse.
|
| 01:37:55 | >> Thank you, mr. chairman.
|
| 01:38:03 | I have heard testimony in this
hearing that the federal gun
crime prosecutions number, 62 a
year, and that "we do not
"
I was surprised to hear that
testimony because I was a united
states attorney.
|
| 01:38:23 | In my time, it became a priority
to prosecute fire arms.
|
| 01:38:25 | I went to every police
department in my state to talk
about what we could do with gun
criminals.
|
| 01:38:32 | We set up a special procedure
where the attorney general's
office, which has criminal
jurisdiction in rhode island,
view the gun crimes together to
make sure they were sent to the
place where they could get the
most effective treatment.
|
| 01:38:49 | I believe that continues,
although I am no longer a u.s.
|
| 01:38:53 | Attorney.
|
| 01:38:53 | I pulled up some quick
statistics.
|
| 01:38:55 | According to the executive
office of united states
attorneys, in 2012, more than
11,700 defendants were charged
with federal gun crimes, which
is a lot more than not doing it,
a lot more than 62.
|
| 01:39:23 | The numbers are up at the
department of justice since
2001, by more than 3000
prosecutions.
|
| 01:39:26 | We may have a debate about
whether more should be done and
who at the witness table
actually wants more to be done
in the way of gun prosecutions,
but to pretend the number is in
double digits or zero is
flagrantly wrong and
inconsistent with the type of
testimony that senators should
rely on in a situation like
this.
|
| 01:39:59 | I should also mention, repeated
testimony from senator durbin
that criminals will not subject
themselves to a background
check.
|
| 01:40:03 | That is that the point.
|
| 01:40:08 | Criminals do not subject
themselves to a background
check, so they do not go into
the gun shops.
|
| 01:40:12 | If they do, they are prevented
from buying a gun.
|
| 01:40:14 | Instead, they go primarily to
the main way we distribute guns
without a background check,
which is to the gun shows.
|
| 01:40:31 | To the extent we can expand the
background check, the fact that
criminals will not subject
themselves to a background
check provides the kind of
prevention that senator graham
was talking about, to keep guns
out of the hands of criminals in
the very first case.
|
| 01:40:47 | Chief johnson, tell me a little
bit about the men and women
with whom you serve in law
enforcement and the type of
training and screening that is
important in both gun use, gun
safety, and situational
awareness, before they are put
in a position where there are
expected to defend the public
with firearms.
|
| 01:41:20 | Do you just give somebody a gun
and say, get in there and
defend the community?
|
| 01:41:42 | How rigorous, how cautious are
you about training required?
|
| 01:41:44 | >> The process starts well
before we even offer you a
badge.
|
| 01:41:51 | It is a very robust, in depth,
psychological review of whether
or not we will allow you to
enter the force itself.
|
| 01:41:59 | All departments are universal
on this issue.
|
| 01:42:05 | It includes psychological,
polygraph, and other means to
determine whether or not you
have the fiber to have the
awesome responsibility to carry
a gun.
|
| 01:42:15 | The training is exhaustive.
|
| 01:42:15 | Weeks and weeks of training for
how to use the weapon,
tactically how to deal with it,
how to care for it, how to
safeguard that weapon.
|
| 01:42:32 | But it does not stop there.
|
| 01:42:33 | Once you're in the field, robust
psychological services section,
yearly training.
|
| 01:42:36 | This talk about teachers having
guns --
>> before we go to teachers, to
your knowledge, does the
military have similar types of
concerns and programs with
respect to our men and women who
serve in our armed forces?
|
| 01:42:50 | >> Talking with my associates
in the military, it is my
understanding that public
policing mirrors much of what
the military does.
|
| 01:43:00 | >> Against that background, how
much sense does it make to have
our armed line of defense be
teachers?
|
| 01:43:08 | >> Does the teacher have the
nerve fiber to carry that
weapon, and the responsibility?
|
| 01:43:17 | You are an educator.
|
| 01:43:18 | You dedicated your life to that
pursuit, but you have a side arm
strapped to yourself?
|
| 01:43:20 | And you better have it at all
times because if you put it in
your desk drawer, your purse,
briefcase -- let me tell you
something, carrying this weapon
by my side has been a pain all
my years.
|
| 01:43:34 | I am glad I have it if I need
it, but it is an awesome
responsibility.
|
| 01:43:38 | What do you do in the
summertime when you dress down?
|
| 01:43:40 | How will you safeguard the
weapon from a classroom of 16-
year-old boys who want to touch
it?
|
| 01:43:47 | Certainly -- holsters.
|
| 01:43:51 | I am spending $200 apiece for
these.
|
| 01:43:52 | These are all factors.
|
| 01:44:01 | We all face catastrophic changes
in our lives as we go through
divorce, other things that bring
us down.
|
| 01:44:08 | But you need people to step in,
like we have been policing, to
notice those things and deal
with them.
|
| 01:44:11 | This is a major issue.
|
| 01:44:18 | >> We have had cases in which
trained police officers who were
off-duty responded to a
situation.
|
| 01:44:28 | Because they had not been
adequately trained in how to
respond off-duty, because there
were out of uniform, that lead
to tragic blue on blue events.
|
| 01:44:33 | Presumably, that would have a
bearing on officers, a situation
where teachers were trying to
defend their school.
|
| 01:44:46 | >> Two years ago in baltimore
city, an on-duty officer in
plainclothes was shot by
uniformed on duty personnel,
and they were on the same shift.
|
| 01:44:52 | It was just in the darkness of
the night.
|
| 01:45:04 | As captain kelly has pointed
out, that was a major issue in
the tucson shooting.
|
| 01:45:15 | >> Sarah mckinley, in defending
her home, used a remington 12
gauge shotgun that would not be
banned under the statute,
correct?
|
| 01:45:26 | >> I do not remember what type
of weapon she used.
|
| 01:45:28 | >> That is what kind of weapon
it was and it would not be
banned under the statute.
|
| 01:45:35 | It proves the point that
ordinary firearms, not 100
magazines, peculiar types of
artifacts -- people are quite
capable of defending themselves.
|
| 01:45:43 | >> I respectfully disagree.
|
| 01:45:44 | I understand you are also a
graduate from the university of
virginia school of law and you
were close to monticello where
thomas jefferson and our
declaration of independence and
close by montpelier where james
madison was instrumental in
drafting the bill of rights.
|
| 01:46:03 | I think you can understand that,
as a woman, it is very important
not to place undue burdens on
our second amendment right to
choose to defend ourselves.
|
| 01:46:16 | I do not know what weapon she
used --
>> my point is, the example you
used is one that would not dare
an argument against the proposal
that is before us, because that
remington express is a weapon
that would be perfectly allowed.
|
| 01:46:35 | >> Would it have been
unreasonable for her to use a
different gun to protect her
child?
|
| 01:46:38 | >> I think if she was using a
100 -- let me put it another
way.
|
| 01:46:46 | She would clearly have an
adequate ability to protect her
family without the need for a
100-round piece.
|
| 01:46:49 | >> How can you say that?
|
| 01:46:50 | You are a large man.
|
| 01:46:53 | You are -- tall.
|
| 01:46:54 | You are not a young mother who
has a young child with her.
|
| 01:47:03 | I am passionate about this
position because you cannot
understand, you are not a woman
stuck in her house, having to
defend her children, not able to
leave her child, not able to
seek safety, on the phone with
911, and she cannot get the
police there fast enough to
protect her chd, and she is
not used to being in a fire
fight.
|
| 01:47:22 | >> My point is that she did it
adequately and safely with
lawful firearms and without the
firepower that was brought to
bear so that the 14th shot could
be fired by a man --
>> we will have to come back to
this.
|
| 01:47:58 | There are a number of things
that I could say but I will go
to senator lee.
|
| 01:48:07 | >> I want to thank each of the
members of the panel for
enduring two hours of this
hearing.
|
| 01:48:12 | As a more junior member of the
committee who sometimes gets to
ask questions last, I am
appreciative of your willingness
to stay this long.
|
| 01:48:24 | I think every one of us in this
room and watching on television
has been horrified by the
incidents that occurred in
newtown, tucson, and elsewhere.
|
| 01:48:32 | I do not think there is one of
us that would not like us to
find a way, as a society, to
put an end to events like this.
|
| 01:48:41 | It would be my preference if we
could find a way to put an end
to events like this without
doing violence to the
constitution and also without
leaving law-abiding citizens
more vulnerable to crime.
|
| 01:48:55 | There are a number of statistics
on this.
|
| 01:48:56 | One statistic I read indicated
5 million times a year
in america a gun is used to
protect its possessor from a
crime.
|
| 01:49:04 | That is quite significant, a
fact we need to take into
account.
|
| 01:49:11 | There has been a lot of
reference today to the fact that
the protections of the
constitution, protection of the
second amendment right to bear
arms, are not unlimited.
|
| 01:49:24 | I agree there are limits.
|
| 01:49:26 | It is important for us to focus
on what those limits are.
|
| 01:49:32 | The supreme court, in district
of columbia versus heller, held
that the guns that are within
the zone of protection of the
second amendment are those that
are typically possessed by law-
abiding citizens for lawful
purposes.
|
| 01:49:47 | Let's start with you, professor
kopel.
|
| 01:49:49 | Can you tell me, is a semi-
automatic weapon, whether a
rifle or handgun, that holds
more than 10 rounds in its
ammunition magazine, one that
could be fairly characterized as
one typically possessed by law-
abiding citizen for lawful
purposes?
|
| 01:49:59 | >> In handguns, some
automatics, 81% of handguns
sold.
|
| 01:50:14 | A very large percentage of those
have as standard -- not high
capacity -- magazines between 11
magazine 19 rounds.
|
| 01:50:28 | Another thing that is common,
to get back to the issue about
the remington shotgun, senator
feinstein's bill would outlaw
that shotgun if it has a seven-
round magazine on it.
|
| 01:50:39 | It comes with a five-round
magazine.
|
| 01:50:42 | You can extend it.
|
| 01:50:43 | The bill would outlaw that
standard home defense shotgun,
if it had a seven-round
magazine.
|
| 01:50:59 | It is all fine to talk about
novelty items on the fringe,
like 100-round drums, but at
practice, what does the threat
of being a law, when people are
using standard capacity handgun
magazines and standard
capacities for rifles and
shotguns.
|
| 01:51:06 | >> What are the law-abiding
citizens doing with these?
|
| 01:51:11 | What are the lawful purposes to
which law-abiding citizens are
using these guns?
|
| 01:51:14 | >> Self-defense, target
shooting, all of which are
purposes lawful for having a
firearm.
|
| 01:51:25 | And in regards to the extra
training the police officers
have.
|
| 01:51:35 | I represented the two police
training organizations in the
supreme court and I would
certainly agree that the police
have more training for all kinds
of reasons, including having the
power to effectuate arrests,
which ordinary citizens do not.
|
| 01:51:45 | In the view of the training
organizations, they believe the
training that is required in
most states to obtain a permit
to carry a handgun for lawful
protection of self.
|
| 01:52:05 | Only nine states currently
violate that by not letting
trained citizens carry.
|
| 01:52:16 | That is appropriate for you, to
defend themselves.
|
| 01:52:17 | Not necessarily do arrests, but
defend themselves.
|
| 01:52:19 | That includes defending
themselves in their place of
employment, even if it happens
to be a school.
|
| 01:52:25 | >> One of the arguments I have
heard for making this type of
weapon illegal, using a weapon
with more than 10 rounds,
weapons like these are available
on a widespread basis.
|
| 01:52:29 | It is relatively easy to buy
them, in the sense that most
people may lawfully buy them and
own them.
|
| 01:52:51 | And that is used as an argument
in favor of restricting access
to these weapons.
|
| 01:52:54 | In your opinion, does that make
it more or less constitutionally
permissible to restrict their
sales?
|
| 01:53:10 | >> You have hit on what district
of columbia versus heller was
all about.
|
| 01:53:17 | How often are 100-round draw
magazines used in crimes?
|
| 01:53:18 | Pretty rarely.
|
| 01:53:19 | Self-defense?
|
| 01:53:19 | Pretty rarely, too.
|
| 01:53:22 | 70% Of gun homicides are from
handguns.
|
| 01:53:26 | The supreme court said that the
fact these are frequently used
in crimes does not mean that
under the constitution you can
prohibit them.
|
| 01:53:36 | The fact and you can point to
any particular crime where a gun
was misused, that approval to
ban this gun or the accessories,
that is the opposite of what the
supreme court is saying.
|
| 01:53:45 | You do not look only at the
misuse of an arm or accessory,
you look at its lawful use.
|
| 01:53:48 | Does it have common, lawful use.
|
| 01:53:49 | Yes, handguns have common,
lawful use.
|
| 01:53:54 | Handgun magazines have common,
lawful use.
|
| 01:54:04 | Yes, the ar-15 rifle, the best
selling rifle in this country
for years, has pervasive lawful
use.
|
| 01:54:14 | >> If we restrict access to
these guns, we are limiting the
ability of individual americans,
law-abiding americans, to use
them for lawful purposes?
|
| 01:54:23 | >> Criminals may misuse
something, but that does not
constitute sufficient reason to
prevent law-abiding citizens
from using a commonly used
firearm.
|
| 01:54:39 | trotter, do most of the
gun-owning women that you know
have an inclination to abide by
the law in connection with a gun
ownership?
|
| 01:54:49 | >> Definitely.
|
| 01:54:49 | >> If we were to ban all weapons
that contained an ammunition
magazine capable of
accommodating more than 10
rounds, would most female gun
owners abide by that law?
|
| 01:55:00 | >> Of course.
|
| 01:55:03 | >> What about criminals, those
who use weapons like these in
connection with crimes?
|
| 01:55:10 | Are they as likely to abide by
that law?
|
| 01:55:15 | >> By definition, criminals do
not abide by the law.
|
| 01:55:17 | >> Women you know, that you
represent, described, what kind
of position does this put them
in relative to their current
position, as their ability to
defend themselves?
|
| 01:55:29 | >> It disarms the women, puts
them at a severe disadvantage
and not only affects them, but
anybody they are responsible
for, their children, elderly
relatives, incapacitated family
members.
|
| 01:55:42 | >> I see my time has expired.
|
| 01:55:43 | I have one question for mr.
|
| 01:55:44 | Johnson.
|
| 01:55:49 | johnson, according to fbi
statistics, about 72% of the gun
homicides committed each year in
america are committed with
handguns.
|
| 01:55:59 | 4% With rifles, 4% with
shotguns, 1% with other
firearms, and 18% unknown.
|
| 01:56:03 | 72% Classified as handguns.
|
| 01:56:04 | If 72% of gun homicides are
being committed with handguns,
would that suggest that you
prefer banning handguns as well?
|
| 01:56:11 | >> There are no discussions of
banning handguns or restricting
handguns from women or any
other group.
|
| 01:56:25 | I do not want to give up my hand
guns.
|
| 01:56:32 | We are here today to talk about
a universal background check
that would help make our nation
safer and limit high-capacity
magazines.
|
| 01:56:44 | They are used in crimes and
violence across america.
|
| 01:56:55 | >> Even though far more peopl
die each year from handgun-
inflicted injury than assault
weapon-inflicted injuries.
|
| 01:57:01 | >> We believe the limit on high-
capacity magazines, even in
handguns, is necessary.
|
| 01:57:03 | No more than 10.
|
| 01:57:06 | >> Thank you.
|
| 01:57:18 | First I want to acknowledge of
the family members out here who
have lost loved ones in
shootings.
|
| 01:57:20 | I especially want to acknowledge
you, maya, who lost her father.
|
| 01:57:34 | I was also listening to all of
the statistics here which was
important.
|
| 01:57:38 | I am a former prosecutor, i
believe in evidence.
|
| 01:57:48 | The statistic I will never
forget is the one from newtown,
shared with me by a
relative of one of the young
victims.
|
| 01:57:56 | Charlotte bacon loved her girls
got troop.
|
| 01:57:58 | Her girl scout troop once had 10
girls and now there are only
five left.
|
| 01:58:04 | We have to remember what this is
all about as we look at
solutions.
|
| 01:58:28 | As a former prosecutor, I have
always believed in enforcing the
laws on the books.
|
| 01:58:31 | lapierre, I made it a major
focus of our office to prosecute
the possession of guns.
|
| 01:58:33 | It is clearly part of the
solution.
|
| 01:58:34 | You can not lessen the
importance of that as we go
forward.
|
| 01:58:36 | There are other things as well,
including the recodations
that have been made by vice
president biden and the task
force.
|
| 01:58:40 | It is very important that we
explore those in addition to
enforcing the laws on the books.
|
| 01:58:54 | I have heard from republican
sheriffs from all over the state
that there are major issues with
background checks.
|
| 01:58:58 | I would turn to that first,
chief johnson.
|
| 01:58:59 | We had a guy in minnesota that
just came out in the papers.
|
| 01:59:01 | He killed his parents, he got
out, somehow got a permit, was
able to obtain guns.
|
| 01:59:06 | When they found him, he had 13
guns in his house, and he had a
note that he had written to the
gunman in newtown and said, i
think about killing all the
time.
|
| 01:59:20 | He was able to get a permit and
get those guns.
|
| 01:59:24 | This just came out in our local
paper.
|
| 01:59:27 | What do you see as some of the
biggest loopholes?
|
| 01:59:30 | We talk about gun shows,
internet, private sales, and
how you think that could help?
|
| 01:59:34 | And then how do you think you
can get background checks done
quickly?
|
| 01:59:41 | I am from a hunting estate.
|
| 01:59:44 | The last thing I want to do is
hurt my uncle and his hunting.
|
| 01:59:50 | >> There has been great
improvement in the nation.
|
| 01:59:52 | It is good but it is not good
enough.
|
| 02:00:03 | We are failing miserably,
nationally, entering that data.
|
| 02:00:04 | Statistics I have read indicate
nearly 18 states across the
nation submit less than 100
records to the nics system on a
regular basis.
|
| 02:00:18 | We have to improve, maryland has
to improve.
|
| 02:00:19 | We are not doing enough in
maryland.
|
| 02:00:23 | >> Is it true that 40% of gun
sales take place at gun shows?
|
| 02:00:25 | >> That is correct.
|
| 02:00:30 | And other non-licensed dealer
sale arrangements.
|
| 02:00:37 | 6 Million guns through that
process a year.
|
| 02:00:39 | >> Are more people now using the
internet to buy guns?
|
| 02:00:42 | >> I was with my squad before
coming here today.
|
| 02:00:54 | They regularly use the internet,
penny savers, classified ads.
|
| 02:00:56 | They will go outside the state
in many cases.
|
| 02:01:00 | There are a variety of methods.
|
| 02:01:01 | Including straw purchasers.
|
| 02:01:05 | >> You talked about how quickly
the background checks can be
done, compared to issuing a
ticket.
|
| 02:01:12 | >> The analysis we have
conducted, information I have, i
believe it is 92% of nics
background checks comeback
within a minute and half at a
licensed dealer.
|
| 02:01:23 | Certainly, that is much quicker
than I can write a citation.
|
| 02:01:30 | That should be universal.
|
| 02:01:31 | That is what we're calling for.
|
| 02:01:32 | That will make our nation safer.
|
| 02:01:45 | lapierre, would you like
to respond on the timing of the
checks?
|
| 02:01:47 | 1, the chief is talking
about using the internet to do
that is a
federal crime and should be
prosecuted.
|
| 02:01:50 | The only way you can do a sale
is having to go through a dealer
and then would have to be
cleared through a check.
|
| 02:02:03 | The senator from rhode island
talked about the prosecution
data.
|
| 02:02:09 | I get that from the syracuse
university data, which is who
tracks the prosecution of the
federal gun laws where that is
the initial charge.
|
| 02:02:15 | My project is what they started
to do in richmond.
|
| 02:02:17 | They caught a drug dealer with a
gun.
|
| 02:02:19 | They put signs of all over the
city, if you have an illegal
gun, you will be prosecuted.
|
| 02:02:25 | Drug dealers, gangs, felons
stopped carrying guns.
|
| 02:02:30 | So this 62 number was for
chicago alone.
|
| 02:02:43 | >> I know you want to discuss
the statistics with senator
whitehouse but I have my own
questions.
|
| 02:02:58 | >> Gun shows right now,
according to all the surveys,
are not a source of crime guns.
|
| 02:03:01 | 1.7%.
|
| 02:03:07 | Criminals are getting guns on
the black market, stealing them,
they are not getting them
through gun shows.
|
| 02:03:11 | If you are talking about
expanding a system that is
already overloaded, where they
are not doing basically any
prosecutions -- it is like
bonnie and clyde.
|
| 02:03:17 | They catch one but cannot do
anything so they let them go.
|
| 02:03:18 | If you are thinking about
expanding that thinking to every
hunter, every relative all over
the united states, when the
system cannot handle what it
has, you are creating enormous
federal bureaucracy.
|
| 02:03:31 | It will only hit the law-
abiding people, not criminals.
|
| 02:03:44 | Honest people will be entrapped
into committing crimes they had
no intention of committing.
|
| 02:03:46 | It is an unworkable universal
federal nightmare bureaucracy
being imposed by the federal
government.
|
| 02:03:51 | I do not think these law-abiding
people --
>> it is my understanding that
when people buy guns they
undergo a background check.
|
| 02:04:09 | We are simply trying to close
some of these loopholes.
|
| 02:04:11 | Chief, would you like to
respond?
|
| 02:04:19 | >> Certainly, when a weapon is
licensed to a dealer, they
undergo a check.
|
| 02:04:26 | But 40% of these guns are being
sold out of that process.
|
| 02:04:28 | This is not unreasonable.
|
| 02:04:34 | If I buy a gun next year,
through a private seller, i
will go to a licensed dealer to
do it.
|
| 02:04:46 | kelly, you said it best
when you talked about your
belief in the second amendment.
|
| 02:04:48 | With those rights comes
responsibility.
|
| 02:04:49 | You talked about responsibility
to make sure that these guns to
not get into the hands of
criminals, terrorists, those
with mental illness.
|
| 02:04:54 | Do you see the background check
as a way to get at this problem?
|
| 02:05:00 | >> Gabby and I are both
responsible gun owners.
|
| 02:05:03 | I bought a hunting rifle from
wal-mart a couple of months ago.
|
| 02:05:06 | I went through a background
check, did not take long.
|
| 02:05:08 | They were able to clearly
determine that I was a
responsible person.
|
| 02:05:16 | In tucson and in many of these
cases, there are people that
would have failed a background
check if the right data was in
the system, like in the case of
jared loughner.
|
| 02:05:30 | In that case, he would have had
the option to go to a gun show
or private seller.
|
| 02:05:39 | I imagine he would have gotten a
weapon.
|
| 02:05:40 | He was a pretty marginalized
person, and mentally ill.
|
| 02:05:42 | He did not have much of a
community around him.
|
| 02:05:45 | I imagine, in that case, if he
would have not been able to
pass a background check, if
there was a universal background
check, I do not see him going on
the black market to get a gun.
|
| 02:05:58 | Maybe if he did, maybe it would
have taken him a long time to do
that, to find the right place to
go.
|
| 02:06:09 | Maybe in the period of time --
just maybe -- his parents would
have got him on treatment,
medication.
|
| 02:06:12 | If they did, from what his
attorneys and prosecutors have
told me, he would have never
done what he did on that day.
|
| 02:06:18 | So you might not be able to
prevent every single criminal
from getting a weapon, but a
universal background check is a
common-sense thing to do.
|
| 02:06:25 | If we do them for federal,
licensed dealers, why can't we
do it at the gun shows and for
private sale?
|
| 02:06:41 | >> Thank you.
|
| 02:06:41 | As I was listening, I was
thinking about all those people
in the room who have those
maybes.
|
| 02:06:46 | We have to do better with
background checks, the number of
proposals out there provided by
the vice-president commission.
|
| 02:06:59 | We can do better.
|
| 02:07:04 | >> Thank you.
|
| 02:07:05 | I welcome one of the three new
members of the committee,
senator cruz of texas.
|
| 02:07:17 | You have the floor.
|
| 02:07:17 | I apologize.
|
| 02:07:18 | The allergies have caused my
voice to be so bad.
|
| 02:07:27 | >> It is a pleasure to serve
with you and members of this
committee.
|
| 02:07:30 | I want to begin by thanking the
members of the panel who have
come here today.
|
| 02:07:33 | Thank you for the time.
|
| 02:07:34 | kelly,
thank you for your service to
this country and for your wife's
extraordinary journey.
|
| 02:07:44 | Congresswomagiffords has been
lifted in prayer by millions of
americans.
|
| 02:07:57 | Please know that your family
will continue to be in our
prayers for years to come.
|
| 02:08:00 | My wife and I have two little
girls.
|
| 02:08:01 | They are four and two.
|
| 02:08:03 | No parent -- in particular, no
parent of young children --
could watch what happened in
newtown without being utterly
horrified -- utterly horrified
at the depravity of a deranged
criminal who would senselessly
murder 20 young children at an
elementary school.
|
| 02:08:26 | Unfortunately, in washington,
emotion often leads to bad
policies.
|
| 02:08:37 | When a tragedy occurs, often,
this body rushes to act.
|
| 02:08:44 | At times, it seems the
consideration of this body
operates in a fact-free zone.
|
| 02:08:49 | I will suggest a philosophy
that I think should guide this
body in assessing gun violence,
and then I would like to
highlight and ask you questions
on a few points that are salient
to addressing this issue.
|
| 02:09:43 | The philosophy I would suggest
makes sense is that we should be
vigorous and unrelenting in
working to prevent, deter, and
punish violent criminals.
|
| 02:09:48 | I have spent a substantial
portion of my professional life
in law-enforcement.
|
| 02:09:53 | The tragedyies inflicted on
innocent americans every day by
criminals are heartbreaking and
we need to do more to prevent
them.
|
| 02:09:58 | At the same time, I think we
should remain vigilant in
protecting the constitutional
rights of law-abiding citizens.
|
| 02:10:01 | Far too often, the approaches
that have been suggested by this
congress to the issue of gun
violence restricts the liberties
of law-abiding citizens, rather
than targeting a violent
criminals we should be
targeting.
|
| 02:10:07 | I would point out, I hope some
of the passion we have seen from
members of this committee, with
respect to the need to prevent
violent crimes, will be
reflected equally should we find
ourselves in a judicial
confirmation hearing with a
judicial nominee who has a
record of abusing the
exclusionary rule to exclude
evidence that results in a
violent criminal walking free
and being able to commit yet
another crime.
|
| 02:10:25 | I hope we see exactly the same
passion devoted to assessing
whether judicial nominees will
enforce our criminal laws and
not frustrate the administration
of justice.
|
| 02:10:35 | Three points I think are
particularly salient.
|
| 02:10:43 | The first is, in my judgment,
the proposed assault weapons ban
is a singularly ineffective
piece of legislation.
|
| 02:11:00 | I was having a conversation
recently with a loved one in my
family who asked a very
reasonable question.
|
| 02:11:13 | She said, why do regular people
in the machine guns?
|
| 02:11:14 | One of the things that happened
in this debate -- the phrase
assault weapons ban gets people
concerned.
|
| 02:11:17 | Much like the phrase military-
style weapons.
|
| 02:11:19 | We are talking about citizens
walking around with m-16's and
fully automatic machine guns.
|
| 02:11:24 | Fully automatic machine guns are
already functionally illegal.
|
| 02:11:35 | Ordinary citizens cannot own
them, absent very heavy
regulation.
|
| 02:11:44 | This entire discussion does not
concern machine guns, and yet,
I would venture to say a large
percentage of americans do not
understand that.
|
| 02:11:58 | I want to begin by talking about
the assault weapons ban as it
was enforced before.
|
| 02:12:00 | I would ask for slide #1.
|
| 02:12:01 | The assault weapons ban that
used to be in effect, according
to the department of justice,
"fails to reduce average number
of victims per gun murder
incident or multiple gunshot
"
that is the assessment of the
united states department of
justice.
|
| 02:12:15 | That is 1994.
|
| 02:12:16 | That was beginning in the
department of justice under
president clinton who said the
assault weapons ban was
singularly ineffective.
|
| 02:12:19 | Second slide.
|
| 02:12:32 | The department of justice,
likewise, concluded the assault
weapons ban "under it, there has
been no discernible reduction in
the lethality and injuriousness
"
so the reaction of this tragedy
in newtown is, for a lot of the
elected officials, to rush to
reenact a law that according to
the department of justice did
absolutely nothing to reduce gun
violence.
|
| 02:13:03 | Now, why is that?
|
| 02:13:04 | That is not accidental.
|
| 02:13:05 | The assault weapons ban, if it
does not ban machine guns, what
does it ban?
|
| 02:13:12 | What it does ban, I would
suggest, are scary-looking guns.
|
| 02:13:23 | This is a photograph of a
remington 750, one of the most
popular hunting rifles in
america.
|
| 02:13:33 | This rifle would be entirely
legal under this so-called
assault weapons ban.
|
| 02:13:38 | I have a question for you, mr.
|
| 02:13:39 | Lapierre.
|
| 02:13:40 | Functionally, in terms of the
operations of this fire arm,
semi-automatic, you pull the
trigger, one bullet comes out.
|
| 02:13:51 | Is the firing mechanism in this
fire arm materially different
from the so-called assault
weapons ban this bill is
targeted at?
|
| 02:13:59 | >> No, it is not.
|
| 02:14:00 | >> Instead what it does target
are cosmetic features.
|
| 02:14:08 | For example, I am holding in my
hand a pistol grip.
|
| 02:14:14 | Under this proposed legislation,
if this piece of plastic were
attached to this rifle, it
would suddenly become a banned
assault weapon.
|
| 02:14:26 | lapierre,
are you aware of any evidence to
suggest that attaching a piece
of plastic to this rifle would
make it in any way slightly more
dangerous?
|
| 02:14:38 | >> The problem with the whole
bill that senator feinstein
introduced, it is based on
falsehoods to people that do not
understand firearms.
|
| 02:14:47 | To convince them that the
performance characteristics of
guns they are trying to ban
through that bill are different
than the performance
characteristics that they are
not trying to ban.
|
| 02:15:02 | They make bigger holes, rapid-
fire, they spray bullets, they
are more powerful, they are
heavy armor.
|
| 02:15:05 | All of that is simply not true.
|
| 02:15:11 | The ar-15 uses a 223.
|
| 02:15:20 | I hear all the time people say,
no deer hunter would use
something that powerful.
|
| 02:15:22 | There are dozens of other
calibers that are used in
hunting that are more powerful.
|
| 02:15:33 | >> So this rifle, which is
entirely legal and is used by
millions of americans, is sold
in the identical caliber as the
so-called assault weapons ban,
although those looks different,
because they have a piece of
plastic attached to them?
|
| 02:15:48 | >> The one that senator
feinstein uses in her bill, it
has the handle on the bottom,
which was prohibited, also uses
the exact same.
|
| 02:15:59 | >> I am out of time and I want
to make one final point.
|
| 02:16:02 | There has been much attention
drawn to gun shows.
|
| 02:16:07 | The statistic of 40% has been
bandied about.
|
| 02:16:12 | That is unfortunately based on a
study that occurred before the
background check went into
effect, so it is highly dubious.
|
| 02:16:18 | I do want to point out what the
department of justice has said.
|
| 02:16:21 | The department of justice has
said that firearms used in
9% of those firearms
come from gun shows.
|
| 02:16:41 | In response to this crime, this
body does not act to enact anti-
crime legislation to prevent
violent crimes.
|
| 02:16:44 | 9% of the
guns, and a substantial portion
of those guns were sold by
licensed firearm dealers who
already conducted a background
check.
|
| 02:16:53 | 9%, a substantial
portion, are already subject to
a background check.
|
| 02:17:01 | I would ask, if we have a second
round, to get into the
effectiveness or lack thereof of
this.
|
| 02:17:08 | >> I will leave the record open
for questions here.
|
| 02:17:12 | Because of the schedule this
afternoon, we may not have a
second round, but I will leave
the record open.
|
| 02:17:19 | I have questions, but we
probably will not have time.
|
| 02:17:27 | >> Thank you, mr. chairman.
|
| 02:17:28 | Thank you to all the witnesses,
especially you, captain kelly.
|
| 02:17:38 | Thanks to your beautiful wife,
and I mean that in every way.
|
| 02:17:48 | My wife, frannie, and I were
heartbroken for the families in
newtown, tucson, for those of
you listening or watching this
hearing in newtown, I want you
to know that minnesotans have
you in our thoughts and prayers,
and we share in your grief.
|
| 02:18:16 | We shared it when we lost lives
at a sign factory.
|
| 02:18:21 | Maya is here.
|
| 02:18:24 | She lost her father.
|
| 02:18:26 | We share it every time we bury
one of our sons or daughters.
|
| 02:18:42 | I know that a group of students
from redlake reservation in
minnesota, students who lost
their classmates to gun
violence, made the 1500-mile
trip to newtown just a few days
before christmas just to let
them know that they are not
alone.
|
| 02:19:08 | We are all in this together.
|
| 02:19:11 | Over the past month or so, i
have been talking to my
constituents
I have talked to my constituents
how to make our communities
safer.
|
| 02:19:21 | I traveled safely with hunters
and school officials, with law
enforcement officers, with
mental health experts.
|
| 02:19:31 | I have convened roundtable
discussions and I have had
many, many conversations.
|
| 02:19:37 | I have learned is that there is
a balance to be struck here.
|
| 02:19:41 | We can honor the second man and
we can honor the menace of a
culture of responsible gun
ownership while taking basic
measures that will make our
kids and our communities safer.
|
| 02:19:55 | So I have co-sponsored a bill
to limit the number of rounds
and magazine.
|
| 02:20:01 | I co-sponsored a bill to require
background checks at gun shows.
|
| 02:20:05 | I have co-sponsored senator
feinstein's bill to ban assault
weapons.
|
| 02:20:13 | I am reviewing legislation to
address gun trafficking.
|
| 02:20:16 | I have supported funding for
law enforcement programs and i
work every day to carry out the
work paul wallstone does to
repair our mental health system.
|
| 02:20:31 | Tomorrow I will introduce the
mental health and school act
which will improve access to
mental health care for kids.
|
| 02:20:38 | Catching these issues at an
early age is really important.
|
| 02:20:44 | I want to be careful here --
that we don't stigmatize mental
illness.
|
| 02:20:50 | The vast majority of people
with mental illness are no more
violent than the rest of the
population.
|
| 02:20:56 | In fact, they are more likely to
be the victims of violence.
|
| 02:20:58 | These recent events have caused
us as a nation to scrutinize
our failed mental healt and
system and I'm glad we're
talking about this and a serious
way.
|
| 02:21:15 | Police chief johnson, I met
with some mothers from the
mountain view school district
in minnesota whose children's
lives and their own lives were
changed for the better because
their kids got access to mental
health care that they needed at
an early age.
|
| 02:21:35 | They got treatment.
|
| 02:21:39 | Their lives are improving and
their moms lives are improving.
|
| 02:21:42 | As a community leader and law
enforcement official, do you
think it will benefit our
communities if we are able to
use schools to improve access
to mental health care?
|
| 02:21:59 | >> I applaud your initiatives
and your work, senator.
|
| 02:22:03 | The answer is absolutely.
|
| 02:22:10 | The father with a child that
has mental health issues I think
is -- it is absolutely
essential.
|
| 02:22:14 | If my aunt child has access to
medical care she needs but the
record shows and reflex that
nearly half the children and
adults in this nation who are
diagnosed with mental health
issues and not have access to
the care they need and it gets
even worse after the age of 18.
|
| 02:22:29 | We are seeing this in crimes of
violence and in crimes across
our nation and in my
jurisdiction.
|
| 02:22:36 | It is a major problem and I do
recognize that most people with
mental health issues do not go
on to commit violent crimes.
|
| 02:22:43 | However, we have seen over and
over again, it seems to be a
common thread or theme or issue
that we must deal with.
|
| 02:22:56 | >> Again, police chief johnson,
I have heard from some gun
owners who are worried that
congress will outlaw features
that they really like in guns,
things like pistol grips and
barrel shroud is and threaded
barrels.
|
| 02:23:10 | Some say that these features
are merely cosmetic.
|
| 02:23:21 | It seems to me that a lot of
these features are not just
cosmetic, they are functional.
|
| 02:23:30 | Can you and explain why a pistol
grip in the right place makes a
functional difference, why it is
not just a piece of plastic?
|
| 02:23:46 | Why are collapsible stocks
preventing danger.
|
| 02:23:53 | Why are some of the other
features dangerous because i
feel this is a crucial point?
|
| 02:23:55 | >> I agree completely.
|
| 02:23:57 | It is not just about the
capacity of the weapon to handle
numerous rounds.
|
| 02:24:06 | That is absolutely critical in
this discussion.
|
| 02:24:08 | We believe no more than 10.
|
| 02:24:09 | We use that weapon with the
police because of its technical
capability.
|
| 02:24:17 | It has an ability to cool down
and handled round after round
after round.
|
| 02:24:20 | It has a rugged ability, meant
for a combat or environment that
one would be placed in facing
adversaries, human beings,
people.
|
| 02:24:33 | That weapon can be retrofitted
with other devices to enhance
your offensive capability.
|
| 02:24:39 | The weapon itself has features
to adjusted, optics sites, for
example, that can cost hundreds
of dollars and I have shot this
weapon many times.
|
| 02:24:59 | It would enhance our capability
in various tactical maneuvers
whether it is from the shoulder
or the hip or whether you choose
to spray fire the weapon or
individually shoot from the
shoulder.
|
| 02:25:10 | The optic sites are amazing.
|
| 02:25:11 | The technology advances that
weapon as --
that weapon is the weapon of our
time.
|
| 02:25:22 | That is where we find ourselves
today and certainly, I believe,
is meant for the battlefield and
a public safety environment
only.
|
| 02:25:29 | >> Thank you.
|
| 02:25:31 | chairman, before I yield my
time, I would like to submit
testimony of maya ronman who is
here today lost her father in a
shooting in september in
minneapolis.
|
| 02:25:50 | I would like unanimous consent
to submit your testimony for the
record.
|
| 02:26:04 | >> As we indicated earlier,
there will be other statements
for the record and the record
will be kept open for questions.
|
| 02:26:17 | I yield now to senator hatch.
|
| 02:26:25 | We will go to the next
republican, senator hatch.
|
| 02:26:32 | >> I thank all of you for being
here today.
|
| 02:26:35 | kelly, I appreciate you
and your wife and your testimony
and your feelings very much.
|
| 02:26:40 | I appreciated much of your
testimony.
|
| 02:26:45 | I am grateful you would take the
time to be with us and that was
wonderful to see your wife
again.
|
| 02:26:51 | Let me go to you, mr. lapierre.
|
| 02:26:52 | President obama has issued 23
executive actions on gun
violence.
|
| 02:26:59 | Can you discuss the commonality
between your organization, the
nra, and the obama
administration when it comes to
finding ways to reduce gun
violence?
|
| 02:27:19 | >> What we think works, he is
what nra has done historically.
|
| 02:27:28 | We do more of which we put more
money in.
|
| 02:27:34 | Reese support of enforcing the
laws on the books 100% of the
time.
|
| 02:27:39 | That works.
|
| 02:27:41 | We have supported prison bill
and spirit we have states like
california where, more than any
other state in the country, they
send more inmates back in the
street and more inmates back in
jail for new crimes against
their citizens than any other
kind -- stayed in the nation.
|
| 02:28:04 | -- States in the nation.
|
| 02:28:09 | -- State in the nation.
|
| 02:28:11 | Nra has always supported what
worked.
|
| 02:28:18 | -- Works.
|
| 02:28:22 | The innocent are being preyed
upon.
|
| 02:28:24 | The statistics are numbing.
|
| 02:28:26 | The 911 calls are horrible.
|
| 02:28:27 | At the scene of the crime, it is
the criminal and the victim.
|
| 02:28:33 | Victims all over the country
want to be able to protect
themselves.
|
| 02:28:38 | This whole debate almost puts it
in two different categories.
|
| 02:28:42 | If you are in the lead, you get
bodyguards.
|
| 02:28:46 | You get high cap mags with semi-
automatic protecting this
capital.
|
| 02:28:52 | The titans of industry get the
body guards, whatever they want.
|
| 02:28:56 | Criminals do not obey the law
anyway.
|
| 02:28:58 | They get what they want.
|
| 02:29:00 | In the middle is the hard-
working, law-abiding, taxpaying
americans that we will make the
least capable of defending
themselves.
|
| 02:29:08 | We will say you can have a
rifle but you cannot have an ar-
15.
|
| 02:29:15 | A sixth shot revolver and not a
semiautomatic handgun.
|
| 02:29:21 | You can have a 6-rounds in your
magazine, but if three intruders
are breaking down your door, you
cannot have 15 rounds because
somebody thinks that is
reasonable in their opinion.
|
| 02:29:37 | >> I understand.
|
| 02:29:39 | >> People want to be able to
protect themselves.
|
| 02:29:41 | That is why people support the
second amendment.
|
| 02:29:44 | That is why these bills are so
troubling.
|
| 02:29:47 | They do not hit the leads.
|
| 02:29:48 | They do not have the criminal.
|
| 02:29:50 | They get the average hard-
working, tax pain average
ying american.
|
| 02:30:02 | >> Talking about individual
guns.
|
| 02:30:08 | >> One bill bans all kinds of
guns used for target shooting,
hunting, personal protection,
and yet, on the other hand, she
accepts guns and hashe exact
same performance characteristics
as the guns she does not have.
|
| 02:30:23 | Gun owners know the truth.
|
| 02:30:24 | That is why gun owners in this
country, the 100 million, get
upset about this stuff.
|
| 02:30:31 | They are the victims of these
lies about taking the term
assault and applying it to
firearms.
|
| 02:30:40 | They know the truth inherently.
|
| 02:30:42 | A look at their heads and they
shake their head and say, none
of this makes any sense.
|
| 02:30:48 | >> I appreciate that.
|
| 02:30:49 | Let me ask you this.
|
| 02:30:51 | In your testimony, you state all
women interested --
jurisdictions with concealed
laws reap the benefits even if
they choose not to have weapons
themselves.
|
| 02:31:02 | Please explain why.
|
| 02:31:04 | >> He mentioned gun owners are
very concerned about all of
these burdens possibly put on
law abiding citizens.
|
| 02:31:12 | I will tell you non-gun owners
are concerned about this, too.
|
| 02:31:18 | You do not have to choose to
carry to be the beneficiary of
laws that allow people to carry.
|
| 02:31:25 | For women, you reap the benefits
of fewer murders, rapes,
possibilities of being a victim
of violence, if the state you
live in does not than anybody,
particularly women, from
carrying weapons.
|
| 02:31:43 | It is a matter of choice.
|
| 02:31:44 | We are not saying all women
should or need to carry weapons.
|
| 02:31:48 | But we need to protect the
second amendment right to choose
to defend yourself.
|
| 02:31:56 | >> Thank you.
|
| 02:31:58 | Professor, you wrote an article
that appears for "the wall
street journal" on december 18,
2012.
|
| 02:32:06 | You point out firearms are the
most heavily regulated, consumer
product in the entire united
states.
|
| 02:32:16 | Gun-control laws are more
prevalent now than in the
1960's.
|
| 02:32:26 | In your opinion, the lack of
firearms regulations is not a
contributing factor to the
recent rise.
|
| 02:32:39 | What has contributed?
|
| 02:32:55 | >> There is a copycat effect.
|
| 02:32:58 | A lot of studies of the
scholars of all kinds of
criminals, but especially the
people seeking notoriety, show a
-- an effect.
|
| 02:33:10 | That is something that makes me
think we need immediate
protection.
|
| 02:33:17 | In addition, there was a deep
institutional causation of the
mentally ill in the 1960's.
|
| 02:33:25 | Some of that was because of
budgetary issues.
|
| 02:33:29 | A lot of the time the promise
was we would put the people in
halfway houses, which is a great
idea.
|
| 02:34:04 | Then there was never the funding
for the half place -- for the
halfway houses and people walk
away and there is nothing done
to follow up.
|
| 02:34:09 | Jared louoghner, adam lanzq, so
many of these perpetrators
absolutely would have been
civilly committed under the
system we had 50 years ago.
|
| 02:34:14 | We need to move back towards
greater possibility for civil
commitment for the dangerously
violent mentally ill.
|
| 02:34:17 | Both the senator from minnesota
were saying that mentally ill
people are not any more
dangerous or violent than anyone
else.
|
| 02:34:21 | There is a subset of them that
are dangerously violent and
mentally ill and we need to
have them off the streets before
that -- so they can add to it
endanger themselves or others.
|
| 02:34:32 | chairman, I would like to
have a statement put into the
record.
|
| 02:34:42 | >> That objection.
|
| 02:34:44 | -- Without objection.
|
| 02:34:48 | >> Thank you so much and I want
to thank all of you for being
here.
|
| 02:34:53 | It has been and leighton hearing
and if this were a simple thing
-- there are some freedoms among
the mentally ill have to be
considered, too.
|
| 02:35:00 | This is complex.
|
| 02:35:02 | This is not easy but I can say
this -- I think this has been a
pitch typically good thing and i
appreciate all of you
testifying.
|
| 02:35:06 | >> Thank you for that, senator
hatch.
|
| 02:35:08 | >> Thank you for convening this
important.
|
| 02:35:15 | To the panel, thank you for your
testimony and to captain kelly
and a wonderful wife, thank you
for everything you are doing to
bring an important message.
|
| 02:35:20 | We as a committee are wrestling
here today and we as a country
are wrestling with how to
respond appropriately and
effectively to a whole string of
horrific shootings weather in
newtown or tucson or in any sikh
temple or virginia tech, there
are too many of these incidents
a year upon year.
|
| 02:35:39 | I am grateful for all my
colleagues who have engaged in
this to our discussion today
about how to balance things.
|
| 02:35:53 | One of the most important things
is to get our facts right.
|
| 02:35:55 | A number of my colleagues have
made a great deal of the number
of cases of federal gun
prosecution's going down.
|
| 02:36:02 | In the most recent report from
the executive office of united
states attorney and it turns out
the number of defendants charged
with federal gun violence is
steady.
|
| 02:36:16 | In 2011, it was 46% higher than
in 2000.
|
| 02:36:20 | I encourage all who are paying
attention to the numbers.
|
| 02:36:31 | What matters is the number of
defendants prosecuted with
federal gun violations.
|
| 02:36:37 | I have lots of things I would
like to touch upon and I'm
grateful our vice-president, joe
biden, has led a broad argument
and lifted up to the folks
across the country and my state
of delaware.
|
| 02:36:51 | I have heard from parents whose
children suffer from mental
illness and who are struggling
to provide the care they deserve
and need.
|
| 02:36:55 | Law-enforcement officials,
educators, community leaders,
gun owners, sportsmen, people
are concerned about how we
strike the right balance and how
we make our country safer.
|
| 02:37:00 | If I could, to captain kelly,
thank you for leading americans
to responsible solution.
|
| 02:37:06 | One of the main ideas you and
your wife have expanded on our
background checks.
|
| 02:37:09 | How it is today that convicted
felons are able to get their
hands on weapons despite our
current background checks laws
and how can we fix them?
|
| 02:37:15 | >> Currently, senator cruse
9%
of criminals that committed a
crime with a gun are prisoners.
|
| 02:37:25 | I want to look at that for a
second.
|
| 02:37:37 | There's also a statistic that
says 80% of criminals got their
guns from a private sale or
transfer.
|
| 02:37:43 | By closing that part of the
existing loopholes which is the
fact that there is no
requirement to get a background
check with a private cell, you
could be effectively reduce the
number of guns and hands of
criminals.
|
| 02:38:10 | We know from what happened in
tucson that if there was an
effective background check,
which includes having the
mental health data and a
person's drug use into the
system and if, in fact, there
was no gun show lupo, I would
contend he would have had a
difficult time getting a gun.
|
| 02:38:31 | The first in the knees to be
done is we need to have a
universal background check.
|
| 02:38:34 | If background checks are good
enough for somebody using a
federal firearms are licensed
dealer like wal-mart or I just
purchased a got a couple of
months ago, a hunting rifle,
and went for a background check
-- why isn't that good for other
sales from a private individual
or sales from somebody who is
really in business at a gun
show?
|
| 02:39:01 | >> Captain kelley, as a gun
owner yourself, how do you feel
that a thorough universe a
background check like you
describe either 4 per --
purchase of weapons large
capacity magazines -- how could
that affect or in french or
second amendment right.
|
| 02:39:16 | >> I don't think it would
infringe my rights of all.
|
| 02:39:21 | I think I'm as strong a
supporter of the second
amendment as anybody on this
panel.
|
| 02:39:32 | I have flown 38 combat missions
over iraq and kuwait defending
our constitution.
|
| 02:39:41 | I have been shot at dozens of
times.
|
| 02:39:42 | I find it interesting that
often, we talk about putting a
security guard to school.
|
| 02:39:45 | That is better than no security
guard at the school but from my
experience of being shot at and
what that actually feels like
and how chaotic it is, but with
the exception of chief johnson,
I would suspect that not many
members of this power in this
room, for that matter, have
been in a fire spot.
|
| 02:39:57 | It is chaos.
|
| 02:39:59 | There is really some effective
things we can do.
|
| 02:40:03 | One is the background check.
|
| 02:40:04 | Let's make it difficult for the
criminals, the terrorists, and
the mentally ill to get a gun.
|
| 02:40:10 | >> I agree with you and I have
agreed to co-sponsor
legislation.
|
| 02:40:15 | At the outset, I am grateful
for the work the nra does in
providing safe gun ownership to
millions of americans.
|
| 02:40:22 | I hope you'll take into account
the data I have often gone
prosecutions.
|
| 02:40:29 | I disagree with a point you
made your testimony.
|
| 02:40:32 | You said that background checks
will never be universal because
criminals will never submit to
them.
|
| 02:40:40 | That may be true but the point
that captain kelly makes is
telling.
|
| 02:40:54 | If we put in place in
combination tougher restrictions
on straw purchases and those
who buy guns legally but sell
them to those who shouldn't have
them and we put in place
universal background checks and
impose some responsibility on
responsible gun owners to
report lost or stolen weapons
in combination, wouldn't all of
these things effectively move
us towards a country with a
number of those who should not
have weapons cannot get access?
|
| 02:41:25 | >> I think you will end up with
a huge bureaucracy with a huge
waste of police resources and
money that could go into doing
things in the police criminal
justice area that was saved
lives.
|
| 02:41:49 | The study you were talking
about actually says we are
criminals if we have guns.
|
| 02:42:09 | 37% Are from black market.
|
| 02:42:10 | If you try to do this universe
a background check which sounds
what ever, it ends up being a
universal federal nightmare
imposed upon law-abiding people
all over this country.
|
| 02:42:27 | Criminals will ignore it and
the federal government we
already know about prosecute.
|
| 02:42:34 | The vice president at the
bidding with our people said
they didn't have time to
process this, it goes by the
cases.
|
| 02:42:39 | What is the point of all
playing.
|
| 02:42:45 | -- What is the point of this
whole thing?
|
| 02:42:55 | >> The data you just suggested
is not just closing the gun
show loophole.
|
| 02:43:01 | It is also thoroughly enforcing
those who transfer weapons.
|
| 02:43:08 | Chief johnson, is valuable to
have the input of law
enforcement professionals.
|
| 02:43:13 | In book -- in your view with the
background check and aggressive
enforcement, would that be a
waste of police resources or
would that make a difference on
the street?
|
| 02:43:19 | >> I have to respectfully
disagree on -- with wayne on
this issue.
|
| 02:43:20 | Public safety, police -- we are
ready.
|
| 02:43:26 | We are unified on this issue
that a universal background
check will make our society a
safer place, will make my
police officer is safer is
absolutely essential.
|
| 02:43:31 | >> Thank you, chief and thank-
you to the panel.
|
| 02:43:34 | >> Again, another member of
this committee, senator flake
of arizona, we appreciate you
being here.
|
| 02:43:40 | If it's any consolation, I have
bad seed years ago.
|
| 02:43:45 | >> It is good to know and thank
you for convening this and
thinking to the panel for being
here and offering excellent
stimony.
|
| 02:43:51 | I especially want to thank mark
for being here and I'm sure
gaby is watching the
proceedings.
|
| 02:44:00 | I just visited her and I want
you to know and -- and her to
know how much we miss her.
|
| 02:44:13 | I was on a call this morning
with a few dozen ranchers,
border renters in arizona, and
it was reminded that this is a
practice she began years ago,
to talk about immigration
issues and keep them up to speed
and seek their input.
|
| 02:44:53 | I have continued that practice.
|
| 02:44:55 | I can tell you she offered
wonderful representation to the
people of southern arizona's and
she is missed.
|
| 02:45:02 | I'm grateful to you and to her
for the public service you have
offered in the last year under
difficult circumstances and
taking up this new cause so
thank you.
|
| 02:45:07 | With regard to the tucson
shooting, you mentioned jared
loughner had had drug use in
the past that might have
triggered an entry into a system
that he may have been checked
also the mental health aspect
series to bruce gude -- seems to
be the difficult problem to
solve.
|
| 02:45:23 | In maryland, I believe, there
have only been 56 mental health
records provided to the ncia
system and arizona as 125,000
better not interfaced with the
system.
|
| 02:45:39 | What are the major problems
there?
|
| 02:45:45 | I will take anybody who can
comment on this, perhaps chief
johnson, or mark - is its sole
lead a privacy issues?
|
| 02:45:54 | Many of those have a federal
nexus and that is something we
can deal with here.
|
| 02:45:56 | I am interested in in why it is
so difficult to have some of
the mental health records
entered into the system.
|
| 02:46:03 | Do you want to take this?
|
| 02:46:04 | >> Government o'malley in the
state of maryland last week
introduced his plans to
increase significantly data into
the national criminal background
check system.
|
| 02:46:21 | You are right, maryland could
do much better in this area.
|
| 02:46:24 | >> Is this just an issue with
maryland or any other state?
|
| 02:46:31 | I am assuming it is similar to
any other state.
|
| 02:46:35 | Is it an issue of resources or
are there privacy concerns that
prevent them from offering this?
|
| 02:46:41 | >> 18 states submit less
than 100 records to the system.
|
| 02:46:46 | Amongst the middle school
community, there is even fear.
|
| 02:46:58 | How does hipaa fact this
system?
|
| 02:47:04 | I believe the president's plan
called for incentivizing this
and it would help the problem.
|
| 02:47:09 | >> Do you want to comment?
|
| 02:47:10 | >> Thank you for your kind
words.
|
| 02:47:12 | Of the records that arizona has
not submitted to the background
check system, I don't know why.
|
| 02:47:17 | I imagine it could be something
-- it might be a matter of
resources.
|
| 02:47:21 | Maybe the funding is not there
to have the manpower to do that.
|
| 02:47:24 | Possibly, maybe there is no
will.
|
| 02:47:29 | Maybe for some reason in the
state of arizona, maybe they
don't have a desire to share
that information.
|
| 02:47:51 | I don't know but after this
hearing I will try to find out.
|
| 02:47:58 | I will get back to you.
|
| 02:47:59 | .
|
| 02:47:59 | I think we can have a real
impact here so I thank you all
for your testimony.
|
| 02:48:02 | Thank you.
|
| 02:48:05 | >> Senator brooke mccaul, you
are recognized next.
|
| 02:48:09 | Everybody assumes that you and
I had a number of discussions
about the tragedy in
connecticut including one
telephone call when you were
about to meet I have relied a
great deal on both your
expertise and law enforcement
background also the fact that
you're from connecticut.
|
| 02:48:29 | >> Thank you and want to
express my appreciation to you
for sensitivity and your
condolences.
|
| 02:48:35 | So many of my colleagues were
there and expressions we have
bad this morning and for the
beating this hearing which is a
beginning in what I hope will
be -- a call to action that
newtown has begun an action that
is really bipartisan.
|
| 02:48:48 | I think there is a real
potential for high part, on
grounds issue.
|
| 02:48:57 | We serve have more in common.
|
| 02:48:57 | I want to thank all the members
of the panel for your patience
and staying power.
|
| 02:49:09 | It has been a very informative
and worthwhile hearing.
|
| 02:49:14 | But I want to say a particular
thing and others have, to
captain kelly and gabt giffords
enter family for being here.
|
| 02:49:17 | A victim from aurura is here.
|
| 02:49:17 | Some of the sandy hook families
are not here.
|
| 02:49:19 | If it is no objection, would
like to submit the op-ed from
"
>> without objection.
|
| 02:49:39 | To achieve johnson, you are
here not only in a personal
capacity but, in my view, as
resenting and reflecting the
courage and heroism the tens of
thousands of law enforcement
community, police and
firefighters and birth
responders across the country
who, every day braved the threat
of gunfire and are often out-
man the oregon by criminals.
|
| 02:50:05 | I appreciate your service to
our country and I was in sandy
hook at a firehouse or parents
want to find out whether their
children or alive.
|
| 02:50:17 | I will never forget the sights
and sounds of that day when the
grief and pain was expressed in
the voices and faces of those
parents.
|
| 02:50:57 | As much evil as the were on that
day in newtown, there was also
a tremendous power was a man
goodness.
|
| 02:51:02 | It is the heroism and goodness
of the educators also perished
literally tried to save those
children by putting themselves
between the bullets and their
children.
|
| 02:51:08 | And the heroines of the region
and heroism of the first
responders and police who ran
into the building to stop the
shooter not knowing he was dead
and they're being they're
stopped the tragedy.
|
| 02:51:29 | I want to thank the community of
sandy hook.
|
| 02:51:40 | I have spent countless hours
there, the better part of two
weeks after the shooting and
most recently, this past
weekend, the dedication of a
memorial and time with one of
the families.
|
| 02:51:45 | Their strength and courage has
been an inspiration to the
country and very important to
advance an agenda of making our
nation safer.
|
| 02:51:48 | When the way they have done that
has been to create the sandy
hook promise.
|
| 02:51:51 | I would like to read the
promise.
|
| 02:51:52 | We have it on a chart here.
|
| 02:51:53 | It is -- "i promise to honor the
26 lives lost at sandy hook
elementary school.
|
| 02:51:56 | I promise to do everything I can
to encourage and support common
sense solutions that make my
community and our country safer
from similar acts of violence.
|
| 02:52:01 | I promise this time there will
"
tens of thousands of americans
from connecticut and across the
country have made the sandy hook
promise as an ally.
|
| 02:52:06 | .
|
| 02:52:07 | la irerre if
the will take the promised.
|
| 02:52:09 | >> We have advocated putting our
security in the schools, fixing
the mental health system,
computerizing the records of
those mentally adjudicated.
|
| 02:52:13 | Karl rove we can convince some
of these companies -- I am not
talking about the first
amendment -- to stop putting out
the violent video games and
finally, we need to enforce the
reasonable gun laws on but books
that the nra supports.
|
| 02:53:03 | >> Can I take that as a yes?
|
| 02:53:48 | >> Yes, that is a yes.
|
| 02:53:53 | We have 11,000 policemen --
>> can I invite and urge you to
advocate the responsible gun
owners and I thank them for
being responsible gun owners,
also joined in the sense of
promise?
|
| 02:55:22 | >> There is not a law-abiding
firearms owner across the united
states that was not torn to
pieces by what happened in sandy
".
|
| 02:55:26 | -- Hook.
|
| 02:55:28 | They just don't believe their
constitutional right to own a
firearm and the fact they can
protect their family with a
firearm results and the problem.
|
| 02:55:39 | >> You and I agree there should
be more prosecution of illegal
gun possession and illegal gun
ownership.
|
| 02:55:54 | >> I have been on this capitol
hill for 20 some years agree to
that and nobody does it and
that's the problem.
|
| 02:55:58 | I will make you a bed right now
-- when president obama leaves
the office four years from now,
his prosecutions will not be
much different than they are
now.
|
| 02:56:07 | If they did 20 per month, they
would do 20,000.
|
| 02:56:16 | Let's see if we get there.
|
| 02:56:16 | >> Chief johnson, you have
talked very persuasively on the
need for better background
checks.
|
| 02:56:22 | Do you believe those background
check should be applied to
ammunition purchases as well as
firearms purchases?
|
| 02:56:39 | >> Our organization supports
background checks on ammunition
sales.
|
| 02:56:50 | >> Iq.
|
| 02:56:51 | Captain kelly, I'm just about
out of time but I want to ask
you, if I may, if you support
better background checks as an
advocate of the second
amendment?
|
| 02:57:07 | I join you in believing that
americans have a strong and
robust right to possess
firearms.
|
| 02:57:28 | It is below of the land.
|
| 02:57:29 | -- It is dull lot of the lab.
|
| 02:57:33 | Do you believe that better
background checks on firearm
purchases would help make both
arizona and our nation safer?
|
| 02:57:44 | >> Absolutely, senator.
|
| 02:57:44 | While we were having this
hearing, we don't know the
,
there is another, what seems to
be possibly a shooting with
multiple victims.
|
| 02:58:01 | It does not seem like anybody
has been killed but the initial
reports are three people injured
with multiple
shots fired.
|
| 02:58:07 | There are 50 or so police cars
on the scene and I agree with
you, sir, that universal
background checks that has the
mental health records in that
and as the criminal records in
its will go a long way to saving
people's lives.
|
| 02:58:24 | >> And improving the quality of
information --
absolutely >> my let me again
thank the panel.
|
| 02:58:57 | My hope is that newtown will be
remembered not just as a place
but as a promise and that we use
this tragedy as a means of
transforming the debate, the
discussion, the action we need
to make america safer.
|
| 02:59:03 | Thank you, mr. chairman.
|
| 02:59:03 | >> I understand we are coming to
a close.
|
| 02:59:04 | I will make an exception on the
normal rules.
|
| 02:59:07 | Senator cruz one more question
and we will do that and I will
yield to the newest member of
this committee.
|
| 02:59:16 | Enter cruz.
|
| 02:59:25 | chairman, i
thank you allowing me to ask
additional questions.
|
| 02:59:40 | I want to ask the question of
chief johnson.
|
| 02:59:46 | Your testimony today was in
tension with what I have heard
from police officer serving on
the ground in the state of
texas, namely that your
testimony, as I understand it,
was, in your judgment, stricter
gun control laws would prove
effective in limiting crime.
|
| 03:00:12 | The data I have seen suggests
that the evidence doesn't
support that.
|
| 03:00:18 | If one looks in the district of
columbia which had district is
gun-control laws in this
country and banned firearms,
when the ban was implemented in
1976, there were fewer than two
and homicides and that rose to
over 350 in 1988 and two over
450 in 1993.
|
| 03:00:29 | That pattern is reflected
across major urban centers.
|
| 03:00:39 | These urban centers that have
the strictest gun bans like the
city of chicago.
|
| 03:00:52 | Unfortunately, it suffers from
9 murders per hundred
thousand sisson.
|
| 03:00:54 | Your city, the city of
3 murders per
half 100,000 citizens.
|
| 03:00:58 | That contrast with other major
urban areas like my home town
of houston which is not have
strict gun-control laws like the
other jurisdictions, that has a
2%, 1/3 of
baltimore's.
|
| 03:01:22 | The city of boston -- the city
of austin has 1/10 that a
baltimore.
|
| 03:01:27 | In light of the evidence, what
empirical data supports your
contention that restricting the
rights of law-abiding citizens
to possess firearms would
decrease crime rather than
making people more vulnerable
to violent criminals.
|
| 03:01:46 | >> We know that nearly 2
million gun purchases were
stopped from obtaining their
firearms since 1994-2009.
|
| 03:02:08 | Senator, I would say that your
statistics would be much greater
in homicides.
|
| 03:02:14 | What is often missed is the
medical intervention and takes
place today from the emt in the
field to shock trauma.
|
| 03:02:20 | That would be much higher.
|
| 03:02:22 | I am here today representing
nine major police executive
leadership orgizations.
|
| 03:02:31 | For the sake of time, I will
not read all of those.
|
| 03:02:34 | They are a matter of record the
problem.
|
| 03:02:41 | In areas like baltimore, new
york, chicago with some of the
toughest gun regulations and
laws in the nation is outside
weapons coming in.
|
| 03:02:46 | It is about the background
check problem.
|
| 03:02:52 | It is about the acquisition of
these firearms outside the
normal firearms licensed dealer.
|
| 03:03:02 | That is what we have to fix.
|
| 03:03:08 | High-capacity magazines or a
problem and we are seeing
assault weapons used each and
every day in crimes and police
are seizing these weapons each
and every day.
|
| 03:03:17 | Holistic way, with the plan that
is laid out, we can make our
nation and much safer place.
|
| 03:03:19 | >> Thank you.
|
| 03:03:19 | We have three new members of
this committee.
|
| 03:03:21 | You, senator, have the last
word.
|
| 03:03:22 | I occupied the bad seed so you
are very patient.
|
| 03:03:24 | -- I occupied that seat so you
are being very patient.
|
| 03:03:25 | >> Thank you so much, mr.
|
| 03:03:26 | Chairman.
|
| 03:03:27 | I would like to thank the panel
for this very lively discussion
on what is a highly emotional
subjects.
|
| 03:03:31 | Captain kelly, I would like to
thank you for being here because
gaby and I were elected to the
house of representatives in the
same year and her courage
continues to inspire us.
|
| 03:03:36 | I certainly take to heart her
testimony today asking us to do
something now to reduce
violence in our country.
|
| 03:03:43 | Chief johnson, you are,
literally, in the trenches.
|
| 03:03:47 | You are on the firing line and
I give much credence to your
testimony.
|
| 03:03:52 | We have a lot of hunters in
hawaii so I certainly
understand their perspective.
|
| 03:03:59 | This issue is not about
abrogating sacramento and our
rights.
|
| 03:04:06 | It is about reasonable limits
on those rights.
|
| 03:04:12 | -- One area that has been
deemed reasonable is the
requirement for background
checks.
|
| 03:04:18 | What many of us are saying is
what already has been deemed
reasonable should be a
reasonable requirement when guns
are sold regardless of how or
where they are sold.
|
| 03:04:23 | I hope we can reach a bipartisan
agreement on the reasonable
limits requiring background
checks when guns are sold.
|
| 03:04:27 | Captain kelly, I do appreciate
you started your testimony
today by saying there is no
perfect solution.
|
| 03:04:35 | There are all kinds of
antecedents -- environmental
issues and community issues
that lead to gun violence but i
believe we should do that which
is reasonable because nothing
is perfect.
|
| 03:04:49 | I believone of the areas of
focus for your organization,
americans for responsible
solutions, is the mental health
part of what we should be
addressing.
|
| 03:04:59 | Do you have any key suggestions
that congress can take to help
address the mental illness
problem?
|
| 03:05:07 | >> First of all, compelling
states to share with the
federal government the records,
the appropriate records, of
adjudicated mental illness and
criminal records as well and
with in the federal government.
|
| 03:05:21 | I had a conversation with the
vice-president who talked
specifically about inter-
government agencies and why
there has also been some issues
in certain federal government
agency at times getting the
records into the background
check system.
|
| 03:05:36 | If we could improve the system,
close the gun show loophole,
require background checks for
private sellers -- I think we
will go a long way to
preventing many of these murders
and the mass shootings in this
country.
|
| 03:05:50 | We will not stop all of them
but there is certainly a reason
that we have 20 times the
murder rate, 20 times the murder
rate, of other developed
countries.
|
| 03:06:02 | I think that is unacceptable.
|
| 03:06:04 | Like you said, as an
organization, I think congress
can come together on this issue.
|
| 03:06:12 | Realize there is a problem and
it certainly can be solved.
|
| 03:06:15 | >> It is one thing when someone
has already been deemed to show
signs of mental ailments and if
there has been an adjudication,
that identification, is much
easier and therefore that
information should get into our
system.
|
| 03:06:33 | It becomes harder when you're
trying to determine whether
someone is suffering from mental
alma's and needs help and often
these kind of signs manifest
themselves certainly in the
home but also in the schools.
|
| 03:07:01 | We don't have a lot of
psychologists, therapists in
our schools.
|
| 03:07:12 | Would you also support more of
those kinds of personnel in our
schools so we can help these
individuals?
|
| 03:07:18 | >> Absolutely, in the case of
jared loughner in tucson, pima
college was aware he had some
form mental illness.
|
| 03:07:22 | He was expelled because of it.
|
| 03:07:23 | Multiple cases of erratic and
disruptive behavior in the
for
some reason, he was not
referr, as far as I know, to
inappropriate mental health
authority for an evaluation.
|
| 03:07:36 | I know those of the need to be
voluntary but his parents, as
well.
|
| 03:07:45 | In this case, there seems there
was a lack of education within
the community to get him some
effective treatment.
|
| 03:07:54 | It is release said.
|
| 03:08:00 | In his case, as in many other
cases, often, you will see a man
was paranoid schizophrenic that
commits some of these horrific
crimes.
|
| 03:08:11 | But with treatment, they would
never have done these things.
|
| 03:08:13 | Absolutely, we will work at
americans who are responsible,
we will work to fix the mental
health aspect of this which is a
big part of that.
|
| 03:08:21 | la pierre, as
a major issue but so is a
comprehensive universal
background check without a
loophole and getting the data
into the system.
|
| 03:08:30 | Those are critical things that
can make our communities much
safer.
|
| 03:08:34 | >> I do have one question for
chief johnson.
|
| 03:08:38 | This is an area that has not
been raised today so far.
|
| 03:08:42 | It has to do with an
environment that allows cyber-
bullying to occur in our schools
and sometimes bullying can lead
to violent situations.
|
| 03:08:56 | I'm sure it has happened in
baltimore and recently in hawaii
we had a situation in our
schools where bullying led to
fights and the school had to be
closed.
|
| 03:09:09 | One of the ways we prevent
escalation of violent behavior
is to put in place programs that
will address the issue of
bullying which takes place in
just about every state.
|
| 03:09:18 | Do you have any thoughts on
that?
|
| 03:09:24 | >> The president's plan calls
for not only funding and the
announcement for additional
police officers and I believe
congress should support these
plans -- they also call for
funding to support additional
counselors and psychological
service providers in the
schools.
|
| 03:09:55 | Certainly, in my particular case
and in many jurisdictions across
the country, we have police
officers in all the high schools
and the middle schools.
|
| 03:09:59 | It costs about $85 million per
year.
|
| 03:10:00 | They have a place that we
believe that more needs to be
done in this area.
|
| 03:10:05 | In my two school shootings, in
both shootings, a bully was
alleged to be a factor.
|
| 03:10:07 | >> Q.
|
| 03:10:07 | >> Thank you very much.
|
| 03:10:08 | I want to thank all the
witnesses who came here to this
lengthy hearing.
|
| 03:10:10 | I think what we are trying to do
and I hope people realize on
this committee that we are
trying to write laws to protect
the public.
|
| 03:10:14 | I cherish and exercise my second
amendment rights as I do all my
rights under the constitution.
|
| 03:10:17 | I don't think individual rights
include weapons of war, land
mines, tanks, or machine guns or
rocket propelled grenades.
|
| 03:10:21 | We have stepped back from those
levels.
|
| 03:10:41 | I came here to have a
discussion and hope to build
consensus.
|
| 03:10:57 | The there is more work that
needs to be done.
|
| 03:11:10 | If there was one consensus, we
would know what to do.
|
| 03:11:14 | It breaks all our hearts.
|
| 03:11:15 | I am one hour's drive from
another country, canada.
|
| 03:11:20 | I don't see the same kind of
problem there.
|
| 03:11:30 | I want to find out how we can
stop what is happening.
|
| 03:11:34 | I believe there should be some
areas of agreement.
|
| 03:11:40 | The committee can get tomorrow
and mark up legislation for next
month.
|
| 03:11:42 | This month is virtually over.
|
| 03:11:46 | And then take it to the floor.
|
| 03:11:47 | We will respect the diversity of
viewpoints expressed today.
|
| 03:11:51 | We will have hearings that will
have other viewpoints.
|
| 03:11:55 | But we have to listen to one
another.
|
| 03:11:58 | We have or the kind of violence
we have seen.
|
| 03:12:01 | And the violence I saw years
ago as a prosecutor.
|
| 03:12:04 | Thank you all five of you very,
very much.
|
| 03:12:08 | We stand in recess.
|
| 03:12:38 | [Captioning performed by
national captioning institute]
[captions copyright national
2013]
[no audio]
[no audio]
[no audio]
>> the senator spoke on the
senate floor about the
legislation and crack down on
illegal guns.
|
| 03:14:59 | This is about five minutes.
|
| 03:15:02 | Mrs.
|
| 03:15:04 | Madam president, rise today on
behalf of the millionsf
americans who are saying enough
is enough.
|
| 03:15:13 | They've seen too much senseless
deadly gun violence and are
demanding commonsense solutions
out of congress.
|
| 03:15:23 | One solution that I've been
focused on for a long time is
ending gun trafficking.
|
| 03:15:29 | This is critically important to
public safety issues, where i
believe members of both sides of
the aisle can come together and
agree.
|
| 03:15:37 | We can and should agree that
it's time to crack down on the
black market of illegal guns
that criminals rely upon to
obtain weapons that are later
used in violent crimes.
|
| 03:15:51 | Almost one month ago, the nypd
suered one of the bloodiest
nights in recent history when
three officers suffered gunshot
wounds in two separate crimes
within an hour apart.
|
| 03:16:03 | According to the news reports,
one of the handguns recovered
from the scene was importe by
traffickers from philadelphia.
|
| 03:16:09 | Another one came from north
carolina.
|
| 03:16:13 | Thankfully, these heroes are on
their way towards recovery.
|
| 03:16:16 | Just one year ago, new york
police officer peter fegogski,
the father of four beautiful
girls, was tragically killed on
the beat with an illegal weapon
purchased in the black market in
virginia.
|
| 03:16:34 | I will never forget the faces of
slain 17-year-old honor student
niasha priard's parents, who i
met jt weeks after being sworn
in to the senate.
|
| 03:16:48 | Niasha was also killed by an
illegal gun one terrible night
when she was doing nothing more
than enjoying an evening with
friends.
|
| 03:16:55 | According to new york city's
mayor's office, 85% of the guns
used in crime in new york city
come from out of state and 90%
of those guns are brought
through the illegal black market
run by traffickers.
|
| 03:17:09 | The sad fact is that more than
30 people die every single day
due to gun violence.
|
| 03:17:16 | These senseless killis must
stop.
|
| 03:17:20 | We have an obligation to act and
prevent tomorrow's senseless
deaths by ensuring that guns
stay out of the hands of
criminals and the dangerously
mentally ill and to strengthen
our laws so that law enforcement
have the ability to go after the
gun runners and take down these
illegal markets.
|
| 03:17:39 | The truth is that supporting the
secondmendment and reducing
gun violence are compatible and
consistent.
|
| 03:17:49 | Responsible gun owners
vehemently oppose any kind of
gun violence, the kind of gun
violence that struck in newtown,
aurora, oak creek, and the
thousands of families across
america every single year who
suffer.
|
| 03:18:03 | We should be able to find
reasonable and commonsense
reforms that can preserve our
rights but also protect our
families.
|
| 03:18:13 | Because keeping our children
safe from the scourge of gun
violence is not a democratic or
republican principle.
|
| 03:18:21 | It's not pro-gun or antigun.
|
| 03:18:24 | This is an issue that all
americans can support.
|
| 03:18:31 | There's no political ideology
that finds this cruel loss of
life acceptable.
|
| 03:18:36 | I was incredibly pleased to see
president obama include as part
of his comprehensive plan to
prevent gun violence a bill that
I first introduced in 2009 with
mayor bloombe commissioner
kelly called "the gun
trafficking prevention act,"
which would be the first federal
law to define gun trafficking as
a federal crime and event
scofers illegal gunsrom
being -- scores of illegal gun
from being moved into the hands
of criminals.
|
| 03:19:03 | We have thousands of laws but
effectively none of them are
directly focused on preventing
someone from driving from one
state to another state with a
load of guns in the back of a
truck that they can sell
directly to criminals.
|
| 03:19:20 | It's shocking to me as a mother.
|
| 03:19:22 | It's shocking to me as a
lawmaker.
|
| 03:19:24 | But this is something we can
actually fix.
|
| 03:19:27 | Over the past three years, more
than 33,000 guns used in violent
crimes showed telltale signs of
black market trafficking.
|
| 03:19:38 | 420,000 Firearms
were stolen and thousands of
guns with obliterated serial
numbers were uncovered by law
enforcement.
|
| 03:19:48 | So while law enforcement is
working overtime to track down
illegal guns and apprehend those
who traffic these weapons,
current law restricts their
ability to investigate and
prosecute these crimes.
|
| 03:20:00 | We can all agree this simply
makes no sense and leaves all of
our communities vulneble.
|
| 03:20:08 | I am very proud to have worked
with my colleague and friend,
senator mark kirk, to introduce
a bipartisan bill today, senate
bill 179.
|
| 03:20:20 | This bill takes onhe problem
of gun trafficking head on.
|
| 03:20:28 | Our bipartisan bill would
empower local, state and federal
law enforcement to investigate
and prosecute gun traffickers,
straw purchasers and their
entire criminal networks.
|
| 03:20:37 | Our bill does nothing to affect
the constitutionally protected
rights of responsible
law-abiding gun owners.
|
| 03:20:45 | By cracking down on illegal
trafficking and their vast
criminal networks, we can stop
the flow of these illegal guns
that are coming into our city
neighborhoods and reduce the gun
vience.
|
| 03:21:01 | Law enforcement officials across
the country have said that they
need this legislation to be able
to fight crime.
|
| 03:21:07 | I urge my colleagues to support
this bl, and I urge passage of
this commonsense nonpartisan,
bipartisan piece of legislation.
|
| 03:21:17 | I would also like to now submit
a statement for the record that
senator mark kirk has authored.
|
| 03:21:24 | I'd like to appear following my
statement.
|
| 03:21:31 | The presiding officer:
>> Without objection.
|
| 03:21:48 | >> Next, senators on immigration
reform.
|
| 03:21:55 | Later, a preview of the
president's state of the union
address and how foreign defense
policy will be handled.
|
| 03:22:05 | On the next "washington
journal," a look at auto
industry.
|
| 03:22:13 | We will preview what is expected
for car sales this year and talk
about auto safety and federal
regulation.
|
| 03:22:19 | Our guematt blunt.
|
| 03:22:32 | "Washington journal" is live on
c-span every day at 7:00 a.m.
|
| 03:22:39 | Eastern.
|
| 03:22:41 | >> Thursday, former senator
chuck hagel testifies before the
senate ared services committee.
|
| 03:22:53 | Live coverage at 9:30 a.m.
|
| 03:22:55 | Eastern on c-span and c-span
radio.
|
| 03:23:02 | >> At age 65, she was the
oldest first lady when her
husband became president.
|
| 03:23:07 | She never set foot in
washington.
|
| 03:23:09 | Her husband died just one month
after his inauguration.
|
| 03:23:15 | Meet the other women who served
as first lady in c-span's knew
of original series.
|
| 03:23:23 | -- New original series.
|
| 03:23:31 | Season one begins presidents day
eastern and pacific
on c-span, c-span radio, and c-
span.org.
|
| 03:23:41 | >> Wednesday, senators chuck
schumer and john mccain
discussed details of immigration
issues.
|
| 03:23:51 | The senators were featured
speakers at the political
playbook breakfast.
|
| 03:23:57 | This is 50 minutes.
|
| 03:24:00 | [Applause]
>> good morning.
|
| 03:24:10 | Thank you so much for coming out
early for our breakfast.
|
| 03:24:15 | Welcome to those of you in life
stream land, I appreciate having
you.
|
| 03:24:22 | This is our first breakfast in
2013.
|
| 03:24:25 | We look forward to seeing you
throughout this year after the
amazing year we had last year.
|
| 03:24:30 | We will go inside the "gang of
eight" this morning.
|
| 03:24:40 | They helped pull off a
bipartisan agreement.
|
| 03:24:44 | They will take you inside that.
|
| 03:24:49 | Before we chat with the
senators, we will welcome manu
ragu, who helped break the
story.
|
| 03:24:57 | After that, senator mccain.
|
| 03:25:00 | Before that, I would like to
think bank of america for their
partnership, making these
conversations possible,
including that incredible
brunch where people had a great
time.
|
| 03:25:13 | We had great conversations.
|
| 03:25:15 | The play book series is a form
that makes it possible for us to
talk in depth about the issues
that matter most in washington.
|
| 03:25:26 | In twitter land, if I do it
right, the questions will pop up
right here.
|
| 03:25:34 | I got my first tweet.
|
| 03:25:39 | I will try to do that.
|
| 03:25:40 | [Laughter]
they will pop up as we come.
|
| 03:25:47 | Now, I would like to welcome
politico star manu ragu.
|
| 03:25:53 | [Applause]
thank you for coming in.
|
| 03:25:58 | Thank you very much.
|
| 03:25:59 | Was the "gang of eight" a
secret?
|
| 03:26:03 | Was their detective work in
uncovering it?
|
| 03:26:06 | >> Yes.
|
| 03:26:06 | They did not want to let on how
much work and progress was being
made behind the scenes.
|
| 03:26:13 | In washington, whenever word
starts leaking out about what is
happening, those talks blow up.
|
| 03:26:20 | As they were negotiating this
was happening at the time of the
fiscal cliff negotiations, much
of the media focus was
happening on the fiscal cliff.
|
| 03:26:33 | The staff was meeting, the
senators were meeting, and they
really only had the first
meeting after the holidays.
|
| 03:26:41 | Last wednesday, when they were
close to finalizing that
agreement.
|
| 03:26:46 | It was not until over the
weekend that they actually
finalize did and announced it on
monday.
|
| 03:26:51 | Things moved rapidly.
|
| 03:26:56 | >> As we pre-game here, we are
setting the scene for the
conversation to come.
|
| 03:27:01 | Tell me something about the
immigration bill senator mccain
and senator schumer will not.
|
| 03:27:15 | >> [L;aughs]
>> a bit of a truce bomb.
|
| 03:27:24 | Taking this five page document
into a very detailed legislative
policy.
|
| 03:27:31 | There are going to be a number
of -- this bill could be several
hundred pages long, and we are
talking about a very sweeping
change, not just to the
immigration system but how we
deal with them.
|
| 03:27:45 | How they actually do that and
the hurdles, it will be
interesting to see.
|
| 03:27:49 | >> You pointed out that this is
one of the biggest debates.
|
| 03:27:55 | >> Remember what happened then.
|
| 03:27:59 | This blew up in the senate after
a big push by the bush
administration and the
bipartisan coalition trying to
get this through.
|
| 03:28:07 | It suffered opposition from both
sides, particularly the right,
creating an amnesty, but we have
seen some of those voices muted,
at least in the initial days,
and we will see.
|
| 03:28:19 | >> This gang of eight, four
republicans, four democrats, who
put together this framework,
this immigration bill, how did
we find out that the gang
exists?
|
| 03:28:32 | >> Talking to senators.
|
| 03:28:35 | One of our reporters was the
first one to write about this.
|
| 03:28:39 | Talking to senators about what
exactly is going on on
immigration, because the
president was certainly laid the
groundwork on the new congress,
and as we know, nothing can get
done unless there is bipartisan
support, unless there is
actually a legislative push.
|
| 03:28:56 | It turns out there was interest,
and it all happened right after
the election.
|
| 03:29:02 | Lindsey graham made a telephone
call to chuck schumer and said,
"look, I want to start talking
"
john mccain started one day to
talk about immigration, and what
happens?
|
| 03:29:14 | We are where we are.
|
| 03:29:18 | >> Some people know that capitol
hill is amazing, because you can
walk up to anyone, and that does
not mean they will talk to you,
but you can ask a question.
|
| 03:29:29 | When I moved from the hill, from
the white house to the hill, i
was like standing back because i
was trained like not to approach
people, and they were, "go
"
I have watched you.
|
| 03:29:44 | You physically grabbed the
senators.
|
| 03:29:47 | Tell me the secret in getting
these senators to talk to you.
|
| 03:29:52 | >> I do not actually grab them.
|
| 03:29:55 | >> Yes, you do.
|
| 03:29:57 | >> I sort of hide behind the
bushes and pop out.
|
| 03:30:01 | You try to develop a
relationship over the years and
talking to them and grabbing
them in certain locations, where
they are more predisposed to
chat.
|
| 03:30:11 | When they are running quickly to
a vote, for instance, I would
not get the best interview, but
if they are walking back to
their office, you will have more
time to chat and get to know
them.
|
| 03:30:22 | Over the years, you develop a
level of trust, that they can
trust what you will report will
be accurate and is
representative of what they are
saying.
|
| 03:30:33 | Being able to understand
people's patterns, where there
are boy to be at certain times,
at times where you interview
them.
|
| 03:30:44 | >> What is the buzz?
|
| 03:30:48 | Immigration, the big bucket.
|
| 03:30:53 | What is there?
|
| 03:30:56 | How are they devoting their
attention?
|
| 03:31:00 | >> The fiscal talks are taking a
back seat, at least right now,
because immigration is starting
to drive the debate.
|
| 03:31:24 | That will be resolved, at least
on the senate side, and then
they will unveil their proposal,
and as it goes through the
committee process, but that will
happen at the same time about
keeping the government operating
patches -- past march 27.
|
| 03:31:43 | They have to deal with those
issues once again.
|
| 03:31:47 | This week, of course, it is
immigration.
|
| 03:31:50 | There is not a lot for senators
to weigh in on.
|
| 03:31:53 | There is no legislative text
yet.
|
| 03:31:57 | We will see that debate really,
really consumed congress in
march, april, may, when this
bill starts moving out of
committee.
|
| 03:32:05 | >> As we say goodbye, what are
you going to be doing today?
|
| 03:32:09 | >> I will still be trying to get
as much information about what
is happening in these talks as
well as what senators -- how
they view the latest immigration
proposal, as well as several
other things.
|
| 03:32:27 | >> And you write one story?
|
| 03:32:30 | Five stories?
|
| 03:32:31 | What is your deal?
|
| 03:32:32 | >> Hopefully not tens stories.
|
| 03:32:35 | Today, I think the initial
reaction is out of the initial
stories, of this group.
|
| 03:32:45 | They are starting to move off of
the news side, and we are going
to start to get into what
happened behind the scenes and
onto some of the other debates.
|
| 03:32:56 | Of course, the judiciary
committee, that will be very
important, as well.
|
| 03:33:01 | >> Jumping in as the
conversation goes on.
|
| 03:33:07 | Thank you.
|
| 03:33:07 | Appreciate it.
|
| 03:33:10 | [Applause]
>> and now, without further
delay, we want to welcome
senator mccain and senator
schumer.
|
| 03:33:24 | Senator schumer, thank you very
much.
|
| 03:33:28 | Senator schumer did not trust us
to have sweet'n low this time.
|
| 03:33:33 | >> It is made in brooklyn.
|
| 03:33:37 | 1200 Employees.
|
| 03:33:38 | Eat sweet'n low.
|
| 03:33:41 | It is good for you.
|
| 03:33:43 | >> The aid package, the amount
of money in these times of
austerity, one of your biggest
accomplishments.
|
| 03:33:52 | >> Thank you.
|
| 03:33:53 | There are so many people in new
york waiting for that aid.
|
| 03:33:57 | I was in highland park, and i
was with someone in their home
community.
|
| 03:34:06 | 60% Of the stores on main street
are still not open.
|
| 03:34:11 | Half of the homes cannot be
occupied.
|
| 03:34:15 | They could not be rebuilt
because of the money not being
there.
|
| 03:34:21 | No contract.
|
| 03:34:22 | No bank will lend money unless
they know the money is there.
|
| 03:34:26 | Now they know that people will
be able to get back and get on
with their lives.
|
| 03:34:37 | >> The vice president is going
also.
|
| 03:34:40 | It is an annual conference.
|
| 03:34:48 | I river a few years ago,
vladimir putin came to talk.
|
| 03:34:55 | >> -- I remember a few years
ago, vladimir putin came to
talk.
|
| 03:35:02 | >> What is your vibes about the
president?
|
| 03:35:06 | >> I do not think it was his
happiest day after the 60
minutes speech.
|
| 03:35:14 | >> Why is that?
|
| 03:35:17 | >> I think he is one of the most
likable and congenial men I've
ever known in the united states
senate, and I think chocolate
agree.
|
| 03:35:25 | >> Something rare, which is four
democrats, four republicans,
coming together.
|
| 03:35:32 | You all served years since
senator schumer came to the
other body, and the gang of
eight started to come together.
|
| 03:35:43 | The friday after the election,
senator lindsey graham gave you
a call.
|
| 03:35:47 | On saturday morning.
|
| 03:35:49 | You saw him on your call sheet.
|
| 03:35:51 | You called him, and you said
what?
|
| 03:35:56 | >> I said, "hi, linzy --
"
that was wonderful, and he said
he had talked to john mccain,
and my heart went peter patter.
|
| 03:36:14 | -- Pitter patter.
|
| 03:36:20 | There are different television
shows, sunday morning talk
shows.
|
| 03:36:30 | And we both said we were going
to do it, and there we are.
|
| 03:36:38 | >> Senator, you have gone back
and forth.
|
| 03:36:41 | What made you decide to join it?
|
| 03:36:42 | >> I have always been for it,
but I have always been concerned
about border security, and i
think with good reason.
|
| 03:36:51 | If you talk to the experts,
there are still a number
smuggled into united states that
come in it from the border.
|
| 03:36:59 | There is huge violence.
|
| 03:37:02 | We have people on mountaintops
that are drug dealers.
|
| 03:37:08 | There are these coyotes, and
they mistreat them, and horrible
things happen to people are
brought up part -- brought
across.
|
| 03:37:24 | We have made significant
improvements, and there have
also been technology
advancements in places like iraq
and afghanistan, where we can
surveil the orders.
|
| 03:37:37 | It gets as hot as 130 degrees,
and that is hard on people, so
we have really got to do the
technology side of this thing,
which, by the way, the israelis
have been able to do, and I am
confident we can make that
progress to assure our citizens
that their lives are secure.
|
| 03:37:55 | We are in a secure building.
|
| 03:37:58 | In southern arizona every night,
they have drug people going
across their property.
|
| 03:38:04 | They deserve security.
|
| 03:38:06 | We can achieve that, and we are
on the road to doing that.
|
| 03:38:10 | >> Members going with you.
|
| 03:38:12 | What will you see?
|
| 03:38:14 | What will you see when you go to
the border?
|
| 03:38:17 | >> First of all, they can see
the vastness.
|
| 03:38:20 | The second thing they can see is
the improvements that have been
made.
|
| 03:38:25 | Third, things that still need to
be done.
|
| 03:38:27 | Talking to the men and women on
the ground, ones that are out
there every day, literally
risking their lives, there is
nothing like having eyeballs on
the issue to really get a good
understanding.
|
| 03:38:43 | >> Yesterday was the sixth
meeting of the gang.
|
| 03:38:47 | >> Yes, but we hate the word
"
>> , on.
|
| 03:38:54 | -- Come on.
|
| 03:38:56 | Let's rebrand it.
|
| 03:39:01 | What would you rather be called?
|
| 03:39:03 | >> Group.
|
| 03:39:04 | >> Group.
|
| 03:39:06 | Great americans.
|
| 03:39:06 | How about that?
|
| 03:39:07 | >> What did you cover, and what
is the next step?
|
| 03:39:12 | Excuse me.
|
| 03:39:17 | These meetings are in your
office?
|
| 03:39:19 | >> We alternate.
|
| 03:39:22 | We do not want it to be a
democrat or republican proposal,
so we alternate between john's
office and my office.
|
| 03:39:29 | >> And then I try to get some
kosher food for senator schumer.
|
| 03:39:35 | Maybe some salmon or something
like that.
|
| 03:39:44 | >> John said something when we
were meeting about the details.
|
| 03:39:52 | I said, "do you think we can get
"
"
last night, we started tackling
some of the biggest issues,
parameters for measuring when
the border is secure and about
those gaining citizenship, but
since there are so many, and we
want to make sure that they are
not treated any better for
crossing the border illegally
than those who waited in line.
|
| 03:40:26 | We made huge progress.
|
| 03:40:28 | 15 Minutes.
|
| 03:40:31 | Our staffs are today meeting to
with people from dhs, the border
people, to go over some of the
technologies that john
mentioned and other things.
|
| 03:40:43 | These are set meetings.
|
| 03:40:46 | So we're going to meet on
tuesday and thursday at a set
time every week until we get
this done, with wednesday being
staff meetings to work out, and
thursday to review what the
staff has fleshed out with the
legislative language and
details.
|
| 03:41:02 | >> The audiences here and on
line.
|
| 03:41:07 | You had said that you would have
principles by february.
|
| 03:41:12 | A deadline beaten by four days,
a record.
|
| 03:41:16 | Legislative language by march,
and, senator schumer, you said
you hope for passage on the
floor by late spring, which
really means july, right?
|
| 03:41:27 | >> Well, you do not know.
|
| 03:41:29 | We are right now ahead of
schedule, as you were big enough
to mention.
|
| 03:41:33 | I think in the country to get
this done on both sides of the
aisle, and senator leahy has
been great.
|
| 03:41:46 | Both john and I agree.
|
| 03:41:47 | We are going to go through
committee.
|
| 03:41:50 | We are going to go through the
regular order process.
|
| 03:41:53 | John and I worked on a group
that came up with some rules
changes in an effort to
strengthen that, so we can go
back.
|
| 03:42:00 | >> 51 Votes.
|
| 03:42:05 | >> And we very much want to see
the regular order restored.
|
| 03:42:09 | I have younger senators come to
me and say, "what is a
conference committee really
like?
|
| 03:42:16 | How do you legislate in
"
and it is because we do not do
it anymore, and it makes being a
legislator less pleasant, and we
get less done, so the
immigration bill will be the
first big test.
|
| 03:42:33 | Senator leahy agree that we
would have all of the time we
needed.
|
| 03:42:37 | There will be a big market
committee.
|
| 03:42:39 | Lots of amendments out there,
and senator reid has said when
we are ready to go to the fore,
we will, so our hope is late
spring, early summer.
|
| 03:42:49 | >> They get together and oppose
amendments.
|
| 03:42:54 | Will you stick together?
|
| 03:42:56 | >> We have not talked about
that, but I think.
|
| 03:43:05 | I think we have to, unless there
is something we both agreed to.
|
| 03:43:10 | In other words, it is going to
be as these kinds of things are,
so we will have to take some
tough votes in order to keep it
intact, so that is so far down
the road right now.
|
| 03:43:28 | We have not even had a chance --
>> one of the things we agree on
is that the core principle has
to stay intact.
|
| 03:43:36 | That does not mean that every
single amendment john and I will
agree on.
|
| 03:43:40 | We probably will not.
|
| 03:43:42 | I think it could take three to
four weeks.
|
| 03:43:46 | It is such an important issue to
america, and it is so
complicated, and it deals with
every aspect.
|
| 03:43:54 | I think we should have a full,
robust debate.
|
| 03:44:00 | They hope that we can pass this
with a nice, sizable bipartisan
deal, that would make it easier
for the house to pass.
|
| 03:44:08 | We do not want to have just five
republicans.
|
| 03:44:12 | We will not get all five
democrats.
|
| 03:44:15 | >> It will be there, either way.
|
| 03:44:23 | >> John and marco rubio have
shown such strength.
|
| 03:44:32 | I have been really impressed
with their design to meet us in
the middle.
|
| 03:44:35 | The same thing with bodman
mendez and dick durbin on the
other side.
|
| 03:44:41 | They are getting a lot of flak,
and they are showing strength.
|
| 03:44:46 | That is another thing.
|
| 03:44:49 | But there is a trace of
masochism in all three of us.
|
| 03:44:56 | [Laughter]
>> senator mccain, how hazardous
is it for a young politician,
like marco rubio?
|
| 03:45:09 | >> Marco rubio represents a very
large state.
|
| 03:45:13 | A lot of hispanic and latino
voters.
|
| 03:45:16 | He understands the issues and is
articulate.
|
| 03:45:20 | I think that it is very helpful
to have a newer member of the
senate that is of his, frankly,
really, it a deep understanding
of the issue and appreciation.
|
| 03:45:35 | As you know, his family came
from cuba, and he understands, i
think, the issues confronting
the people that come to this
country either legally or
illegally as well as anyone, and
I would like to say about chuck,
he has been very strong.
|
| 03:45:51 | There are people on his side of
the aisle.
|
| 03:45:59 | He has had to push back against
that, as well.
|
| 03:46:03 | There will be people at both
ends.
|
| 03:46:06 | They will not ever agree.
|
| 03:46:08 | They have to understand.
|
| 03:46:09 | We are not seeking 100 votes,
but we are seeking 80 votes, and
I think we can achieve that.
|
| 03:46:15 | >> Senator schumer, that is the
hope, getting a large majority
on each side.
|
| 03:46:28 | Senator mccain, you said that
what senator marco rubio is
doing is helpful to the senate.
|
| 03:46:33 | Is it helpful to him?
|
| 03:46:35 | >> I think so.
|
| 03:46:37 | Well, and he took a leadership
role on a very important issue.
|
| 03:46:43 | One thing in my political life,
if you do the right thing, it
always ends up ok.
|
| 03:46:49 | If you do something for
political reasons, in my
experience, and I have done
that, it comes out badly.
|
| 03:46:56 | I think marco rubio is doing the
right thing.
|
| 03:47:00 | >> I agree with john completely
in all of this.
|
| 03:47:04 | He is daniel in the lions' den.
|
| 03:47:08 | After we came out with the
principles, he signed up with
all of the talk shows, very
conservative radio and
television host, and it was
amazing.
|
| 03:47:21 | Rush limbaugh has been more
hostile.
|
| 03:47:23 | >> Yesterday --
>> on the show.
|
| 03:47:27 | >> Marco rubio, in the lions'
den, when the show started, he
was far more hostile than at the
end, and that will be a real
service, --
>> what he is trying to do, and
we are trying to do is to have
our talk-show friends, people on
the right at fox and others,
they think the status quo is
acceptable.
|
| 03:47:55 | The status quo is not acceptable
to have 11 million people in the
shadows in this country.
|
| 03:48:01 | I appreciate chucks cooperation.
|
| 03:48:07 | We have to get a secure border.
|
| 03:48:10 | In 1986, we gave amnesty to 3
million people, and now we have
11 million people in this
country illegally.
|
| 03:48:19 | I do not want to hand down to
the next generation a situation
where we have another large
group of people who have come to
this country illegally, and i
think chuck understands that.
|
| 03:48:31 | That goes all long way in
assuaging the concerns.
|
| 03:48:36 | >> One more question.
|
| 03:48:41 | We, dick anbar and on sunday, we
were on the phone with the
hispanic leadership.
|
| 03:48:49 | -- We, it did and I on sunday.
|
| 03:48:56 | There are the groups that so
you're into of their brethren,
brothers and sisters.
|
| 03:49:03 | Brethren I guess is no longer a
politically correct word.
|
| 03:49:07 | I do not know if there is a
female analogy.
|
| 03:49:12 | >> Sister.
|
| 03:49:12 | >> I did not want to say that in
case I get criticized.
|
| 03:49:16 | Sisterhood.
|
| 03:49:22 | They yearn for them to come out
of the shadows, but they it
understand that just to have a
wish list and say, "this is what
we believe and, and are not able
to compromise, that will consign
the problem to go on.
|
| 03:49:38 | It is not just for us with the
groups, but understand that
compromise is a necessary part
of getting something done.
|
| 03:49:47 | >> There is one other dirty
little secret here.
|
| 03:49:52 | 72% Of the hispanic american
vote went to the president of
the united states in the last
election.
|
| 03:49:59 | Republicans are beginning to
appreciate that if we are going
to have a meaningful dialogue
with our hispanic citizens,
latino voters, they are going to
have to resolve this issue.
|
| 03:50:09 | It is just a fact.
|
| 03:50:11 | >> What specifically did
governor romney do wrong on this
issue?
|
| 03:50:16 | >> One of the things I enjoyed
after I lost was the unceasing
broad of criticism and second-
guessing [laughter]
so --
>> so now it is your turn.
|
| 03:50:37 | >> I think the republican party
has failed to understand to any
significant degree the
importance of this issue to our
hispanic voters.
|
| 03:50:48 | I am talking pure politics, and
that is we are elected to office
because the voters think we will
help them achieve their hopes
and dreams and aspirations for
the future.
|
| 03:51:01 | If you have a large block of
americans who believe that you
are trying to keep their
brethren and sister good down,
fellow hispanics down, obviously
that is going to have an effect
on their vote.
|
| 03:51:19 | So I think republicans, not all
monolithic, but more sensitive
to these hopes and dreams and
aspirations that have been
reflected in the ballot.
|
| 03:51:30 | >> Ok.
|
| 03:51:32 | Last question.
|
| 03:51:32 | We will plunge into specifics of
the bill.
|
| 03:51:36 | Senator mccain, there are
republicans in the house and
senate trying to derail this.
|
| 03:51:42 | One cannot from texas yesterday.
|
| 03:51:46 | How damaged will the republican
party be?
|
| 03:51:49 | >> Senator schumer and I are
presenting two bills.
|
| 03:51:53 | It will be a tough, tough fight,
american public opinion has
shifted dramatically since 2007.
|
| 03:52:03 | Poll after poll shows that the
majority of the american people
believe that there should be a
path to citizenship as long as
they pay a fine, back taxes, do
things.
|
| 03:52:17 | Do the things necessary in
order to achieve citizenship,
including being behind those two
came to the country legally.
|
| 03:52:27 | That is a huge caveat and
changes the numbers rather
dramatically.
|
| 03:52:35 | Civil however opposed to it is
now looking at public opinion
polls that are very different in
my view than they were in 2006.
|
| 03:52:42 | >> Senator mccain, if this goes
down, what will be the
consequences for the republican
party?
|
| 03:52:48 | >> I think the trend will
continue of a lack of support of
hispanic voters, and also, as
you look at the demographics,
that means that we will go from
republican to democrat, but
there is a lot of issues that
our citizens care about besides
immigration that they will be
making their judgments onbut
until we get that issue
resolved, then we will not be
able to debate those.
|
| 03:53:20 | >> You are saying if this goes
down, the republicans will be
worse?
|
| 03:53:26 | >> I am not in the business --
yogi berra said do not try to
predict, especially when you are
talking about the future.
|
| 03:53:38 | I think it is a danger, but,
mike, I think the reason we are
doing this is because we see
this issue out there unresolved.
|
| 03:53:46 | It is not so much concern about
the future.
|
| 03:53:50 | >> I was just going to say, on
our side, there are some who
have heard the argument.
|
| 03:53:57 | Let's leave that out there as an
issue because it will insure the
dominance of the democratic
party for a long time.
|
| 03:54:04 | That is just as wrong as the
people who say do not do
anything, and I think the vast
majority of democrats, the
president included, want to get
something done here.
|
| 03:54:14 | >> At the press conference the
other day, I think there are a
lot of people wonder about who
wants this.
|
| 03:54:24 | Why are you convinced that he
once the achievement more than
the issue?
|
| 03:54:29 | >> I have talked to him several
times based surveys, and he
really does care about it.
|
| 03:54:35 | He knows how important it is for
the economy of the country.
|
| 03:54:39 | In has been our number-one issue
to solve the immigration
problem.
|
| 03:54:45 | 11 Million people come out of
the shadows and pay taxes.
|
| 03:54:49 | In terms of future flow, we all
agree.
|
| 03:54:53 | It is absurd that we attract the
best and brightest, let them
, and masters, and
then say you have got to go
home and compete against us.
|
| 03:55:05 | It makes no sense.
|
| 03:55:08 | The president understands that.
|
| 03:55:09 | And let me tell you, he has been
terrific.
|
| 03:55:12 | This idea that we were jockeying
is not true.
|
| 03:55:16 | Dick durbin and I spoke with him
on sunday.
|
| 03:55:19 | We had a great conversation.
|
| 03:55:21 | He has been extremely positive.
|
| 03:55:23 | And I think he has played a very
constructive role.
|
| 03:55:31 | He is a rally in the country,
but at the same time, he is
giving us the spacto get
something done, and I have been
very impressed with not only the
president's desire to get it
done but his ability to work
with us as part of a team to get
that done, as leader of the
team, which he is, but to get it
done.
|
| 03:55:53 | >> Every president in a second
term worries about a legacy.
|
| 03:55:57 | I think he is worried more about
getting this done than about
harming the republican party.
|
| 03:56:03 | >> Senator mccain, have you
talked to president obama about
this?
|
| 03:56:09 | What is the state of relations
these days?
|
| 03:56:13 | >> I have great respect for the
president.
|
| 03:56:16 | I hope and believe that at some
point, we will all be meeting
with the president on this issue
because we need to coordinate
with the administration.
|
| 03:56:29 | But I have not seen a degree of
partisanship overall as there is
today.
|
| 03:56:37 | We are showing some signs of
bipartisanship.
|
| 03:56:40 | This thing we just did in
avoiding the nuclear option in
the senate.
|
| 03:56:46 | This option that I think
republicans are more inclined to
let the process go forward, and
senator reid is more inclined to
let us have amendments.
|
| 03:56:59 | I think when we are down to an
11% approval rating, there was a
favorability.
|
| 03:57:05 | Different things are favorable.
|
| 03:57:08 | A colonoscopy is viewed more
favorably.
|
| 03:57:12 | We were in kind of bad shape, to
save the least.
|
| 03:57:15 | I will not pursue that line and
a further, but I have got this
old mine.
|
| 03:57:22 | A guy rides up and says, "hey,
did anyone ever tell you look
"
"
and he said, "does that not
sometimes make you as mad as
"
both sides of the aisle to work
more with the president then we
work with each other.
|
| 03:57:42 | Maybe that is a little
pollyannas.
|
| 03:57:44 | >> I think, you know, american
politics works in pendulum
swings.
|
| 03:57:52 | I think the partisanship has
reached its peak.
|
| 03:57:56 | >> You think not just on this
issue but in general.
|
| 03:58:00 | >> The number one reason I am so
invested in this issue is to get
it done.
|
| 03:58:06 | Number two, and john and I have
talked about this, this is to
set a new way of doing things in
the senate or the congress of
coming together on issues where
we can come together, and i
think it can happen.
|
| 03:58:20 | I really do.
|
| 03:58:21 | >> We did the defense
authorization bill.
|
| 03:58:26 | 380 Amendments, and we went
forward and did the right thing.
|
| 03:58:31 | I am guardedly optimistic.
|
| 03:58:33 | >> We did postal reform.
|
| 03:58:36 | Towards the end of the year,
little noticed, but there were
some complicated pieces of
legislation.
|
| 03:58:42 | They did not pass the house,
most of them, but they got
through the senate with a good
bipartisan support.
|
| 03:58:48 | >> Do you buy this pendulum idea
that it reached its needier --
nader -- nadir?
|
| 03:59:02 | >> Maybe I am wrong.
|
| 03:59:04 | Maybe that is not the case.
|
| 03:59:06 | We were able to make certain
progress in other areas, and i
think historians that study the
senate will look back on this
version of this nuclear option,
because if it had happened, and
it was going to happen unless we
came up with this road map for
the leaders --
>> this is the filibuster
reform.
|
| 03:59:29 | >> On the filibuster, that if
the senate had gone to a 51-vote
body, it would have changed the
nature of the united states
senate forever.
|
| 03:59:39 | >> Before you leave, senator
schumer, you have some quality
time with the president.
|
| 03:59:45 | One of the hats you where, you
are chairman of the joint
inaugural committee.
|
| 03:59:54 | And some of the jobs are --
>> ride in the limo with the
president alone.
|
| 03:59:59 | It is a very nice limo.
|
| 04:00:03 | In any case, we had a very nice
conversation.
|
| 04:00:06 | It was not different than the
one we had here about what the
next four years are going to be
like.
|
| 04:00:12 | I do not want to give away the
president's thoughts, but i
expressed the same things that
we have expressed here, that it
is going to get better, that
there will be more agreement,
and I think there is agreement.
|
| 04:00:25 | >> What is that limo like >> it
is a clash, big, heavy.
|
| 04:00:32 | You can see out, but they cannot
see in.
|
| 04:00:34 | >> What else did you talk about?
|
| 04:00:36 | >> That was the main thing.
|
| 04:00:38 | The main thing was that.
|
| 04:00:41 | My staff gave me a list of 22
things we needed in new york,
and I was dying to ask him.
|
| 04:00:48 | I figured that was not quite
appropriate.
|
| 04:00:52 | So a rare moment of restraint.
|
| 04:00:56 | A rare mowat of restraint.
|
| 04:00:57 | >> Ok.
|
| 04:00:59 | Let's plunge in.
|
| 04:01:00 | Monday, you put out the five-
page bipartisan free more, and
we would like to read between
the lines.
|
| 04:01:10 | In a bipartisan agreement, it
talked about electronic means of
employment verification which is
not able to be forged.
|
| 04:01:19 | That is code for a super social
security card that would have
some sort of plyometric.
|
| 04:01:26 | Senator schumer, you have said
you are for this.
|
| 04:01:29 | Senator mccain, what is your
opinion?
|
| 04:01:31 | >> I am for this.
|
| 04:01:33 | I want to remind you that the
9/11 commission made a series of
recommendations, and one of the
things that was not implemented
was this.
|
| 04:01:44 | There is technology now that
could give us the social
security card, people with a
social security card, that is
tamperproof, and --
>> you are for that.
|
| 04:01:55 | >> But let's be clear.
|
| 04:01:58 | People say a national
identification card.
|
| 04:02:00 | That is a card you would show if
a police officer came up to you.
|
| 04:02:04 | This would only be used in the
same case as when you use a
social security card.
|
| 04:02:10 | It just could not be forged.
|
| 04:02:13 | If we want to stop future flows,
he is so right.
|
| 04:02:17 | I want to make a point.
|
| 04:02:18 | Our goal is not to come back
year tenure as from now.
|
| 04:02:23 | This means stopping future waves
of immigration.
|
| 04:02:26 | Other parts of it are something
marco rubio has pushed, the
entry-exit system.
|
| 04:02:32 | In other words, we have a
biometric --
>> many people who are here
legally have overstayed their
visas.
|
| 04:02:40 | >> We have a biometric when you
come into the country but not
one when you leave.
|
| 04:02:46 | We have to fix that.
|
| 04:02:47 | Second, the employers.
|
| 04:02:49 | Why do illegal immigrants come
here?
|
| 04:02:52 | It is simple.
|
| 04:02:52 | It is jobs.
|
| 04:02:55 | You can go to a province in
southern mexico and make $3 per
hour, below a minimum wage,
lousy conditions, you are
coming.
|
| 04:03:04 | We want to make sure employers
do not hire people who are here
illegally.
|
| 04:03:09 | The only way to do that is to
have a card that is not
affordable.
|
| 04:03:13 | Right now, you can go down the
street here and get a social
security card or a driver's
license or $100 that is forged.
|
| 04:03:21 | >> It sounds like you have the
language, that this biometric
security guard is there.
|
| 04:03:27 | >> It may be.
|
| 04:03:29 | But I do not think everyone,
some on our side, are there yet.
|
| 04:03:34 | There are too many false
negatives and false positives in
my judgment.
|
| 04:03:39 | We're going to have to come up
with something, but on the
principle, we all agree.
|
| 04:03:43 | >> Someone illegal in this
country, if they do not know
they are illegal or not, that
is one thing.
|
| 04:03:50 | We have to make sure that
someone you hire someone
illegally that they will be
punished.
|
| 04:03:55 | >> Senator mccain, the white
house once the production in the
bill extended to same-sex
couples.
|
| 04:04:04 | -- Once -- wnts the bill
extended to same-sex couples.
|
| 04:04:17 | >> I warn you, if you load the
bill of, you will jeopardize the
issue.
|
| 04:04:22 | We are talking about four
principles that we have got to
act on.
|
| 04:04:27 | Look.
|
| 04:04:28 | I will be glad to talk about and
discuss what are the
ramifications and that, but if
somebody views that as the most
important aspect of
comprehensive immigration
reform, then we just have a
fundamental disagreement.
|
| 04:04:42 | >> I sponsored this bill.
|
| 04:04:45 | I am for it.
|
| 04:04:46 | I care about it.
|
| 04:04:47 | We have not discussed it yet.
|
| 04:04:48 | It will be one of the bills on
the table, but as john said, we
have to first get our basic
structure and framework.
|
| 04:04:56 | >> Border security.
|
| 04:05:00 | I will tell you what my
priorities are.
|
| 04:05:01 | So, again, if you are going to
load it up with social issues,
that is the best way to derail
it, in my view.
|
| 04:05:09 | >> A question for you.
|
| 04:05:12 | How do you respond to critics on
the left who fear that legal
immigrants after the group
missionary -- after the
probationary period -- will you
push --
>> this is very important.
|
| 04:05:25 | I want to say a couple of
things.
|
| 04:05:29 | That the commission can block
anybody.
|
| 04:05:32 | People can immediately get a
work visa.
|
| 04:05:34 | So they are out of the shatters.
|
| 04:05:37 | They can work.
|
| 04:05:38 | They can stay in the united
states if they do not have a
criminal charge against them,
criminal law against them.
|
| 04:05:46 | We know that.
|
| 04:05:47 | But then we have then said let's
secure the border and make sure
some of the parameters are met.
|
| 04:05:52 | We are defining those as we
speak, before you get a green
card after citizenship, but we
have agreed on a few things.
|
| 04:06:02 | Every one of the 11 million who
meet our criteria will be
eligible.
|
| 04:06:09 | We have to figure out how to do
that, and, obviously, none of us
intend for people to wait a
long period of time, but there
is another principle on the
other side, very important, to
help bring marco rubio along,
and to his credit, he has been
talking it all along.
|
| 04:06:31 | He believes that by crossing the
border illegally, you should
not gain the advantage over
somebody who waited their turn.
|
| 04:06:40 | Somebody who applied to the u.s.
|
| 04:06:42 | Embassy in january 2007, and
somebody else crossed the
border and is here january 2008,
we all agreed that the person
who waited in line in 2007
should be able to get that
green card before the person in
2008.
|
| 04:06:57 | We have to figure out how to do
that so it is not a long period
of time, where people roll over
debt before they become, but at
the same time, we have to make
sure that this principle is
kept, because that helps us pass
the bill.
|
| 04:07:15 | Two exceptions.
|
| 04:07:15 | Dick durbin has worked very
hard.
|
| 04:07:17 | We agree that should give
special priority.
|
| 04:07:20 | >> These are --
>> and second, we need something
special for agriculture, because
it is a different situation.
|
| 04:07:31 | Whether you where it -- were in
new york dairy country or
elsewhere, you cannot get
americans to do this work.
|
| 04:07:38 | >> Ok.
|
| 04:07:39 | Senator mccain, have you speak
to speaker john boehner -- heavy
spoken to senator john boehner?
|
| 04:07:48 | >> Something that needs to be
done.
|
| 04:07:52 | Real quick.
|
| 04:07:53 | The environment has changed
since 2007.
|
| 04:07:56 | That is why we are guardedly
optimistic.
|
| 04:07:59 | There are a whole bunch of
things out there that we have to
avoid or diffuse.
|
| 04:08:04 | I am confident that cautiously
optimistic we can get this done.
|
| 04:08:11 | If we do not, I think it will
have ramifications, not just for
republicans but for the entire
country, and to have a country
with 11 million people living in
the shadows is not the type of
country we want to teach our
children about.
|
| 04:08:25 | >> What is the path to getting
this through the house?
|
| 04:08:33 | >> I think probably one of the
scenarios is a majority of
democrats in the house and a
significant and maybe a majority
of republicans in the house, i
would not anticipate a unanimous
republican support, but I think
there can be significant
support.
|
| 04:08:51 | >> A larger number of
republicans we get in the
senate, the more likely it is we
will pass it, and second, going
through the process, going
through the floor and allowing
them, it will help us homeless.
|
| 04:09:06 | We are going to get some
amendments from very
conservative members and very
liberal members, and it will
help refine and educate the
house members about what this
bill is all about in ways where
it may be just as going to talk
to them could not, and so i
think that those things are
important.
|
| 04:09:25 | A good number of republicans go
through the regular way.
|
| 04:09:29 | >> Asking a question, which i
think is a safe topic for
overtime questions, but first,
what did I miss?
|
| 04:09:37 | Is there something that should
be button down here that I did
not ask?
|
| 04:09:47 | >> Moderate read state democrats
from montana, those that voted
against the plan in 2007 --
>> I am not going to speak for
any individual senator.
|
| 04:10:01 | Look.
|
| 04:10:01 | We are going to get the
overwhelming majority of
senators, but we do not expect
to get them all, so we will need
a number of republicans to vote
for the bill to get 60.
|
| 04:10:11 | >> All of the young people have
a copy of the politico, which is
required reading.
|
| 04:10:17 | There will be a written quiz on
today's edition.
|
| 04:10:22 | [Laughter]
>> senator mccain, you
mentioned kennedy in your
remarks, and it was talked
about senator schumer becoming
the deal maker.
|
| 04:10:37 | He had influence with his
democratic colleagues and the
ability to reach across the
aisle, so it is worth asking, is
chuck schumer the closest thing
to that right now?
|
| 04:10:48 | What did you learn from senator
kennedy, or what part do you
think he will play?
|
| 04:10:55 | >> I think senator schumer is
assuming that role.
|
| 04:10:59 | It takes years, and I think
chuck would agree with that, but
he is certainly off to a very
healthy start.
|
| 04:11:06 | One thing I noticed is that he
is very shy and retiring, and it
is hard to give his real views
out.
|
| 04:11:17 | >> In brooklyn, I am known as
shibe.
|
| 04:11:20 | They are much more oppressive
than I am.
|
| 04:11:23 | >> A trait that senator schumer
and senator kennedy share is
that, number one, they know
exactly where they stand, number
one, and number two, they will
not change.
|
| 04:11:35 | They do not go back on their
word.
|
| 04:11:36 | Those are the keys to success.
|
| 04:11:38 | >> Senator kennedy was a giant.
|
| 04:11:42 | He was my mentor.
|
| 04:11:43 | I admire him.
|
| 04:11:45 | I am a long way from him.
|
| 04:11:46 | >> There is a house grip -- are
you guys staying in touch with
them?
|
| 04:11:52 | Are you staying on the same
page?
|
| 04:11:54 | >> We are going to.
|
| 04:11:59 | We just came out with guidance,
so we need to take something to
our house counterparts that we
can agree on, but we want to
work.
|
| 04:12:09 | We absolutely do, despite the
traditional senate snobbery.
|
| 04:12:13 | >> We have not talketo this
group.
|
| 04:12:20 | I have stayed in contact with
senator durbin and menendez.
|
| 04:12:25 | They have been very supportive
of what we have been doing, even
if each specific is not
something they support.
|
| 04:12:32 | >> That is a hard part of your
role.
|
| 04:12:35 | You are kind of the bridge
between the senate deal and what
the white house and the left
want.
|
| 04:12:43 | How do you pull them back?
|
| 04:12:44 | >> Well, first, the desire to
get a bill.
|
| 04:12:50 | We have been through this so
many times.
|
| 04:12:53 | As john mentioned, a bill that
passed and did not do their job.
|
| 04:12:57 | And more recent attempts that
did not get anywhere.
|
| 04:13:01 | Just think of yourself as a
hispanic leader.
|
| 04:13:04 | You have all these people knew
you know and deal with and talk
with who are in the shadows.
|
| 04:13:13 | They are desperate to live a
life and the americans the way
the other 300 million americans
are.
|
| 04:13:23 | We are willing to make a
compromise.
|
| 04:13:25 | This is chuck schumer, but it is
almost all of the democrats and
the president, and the bottom
line is a path to citizenship.
|
| 04:13:35 | They have so far, and I believe
it will continue, given us the
kind of flexibility we need to
get a bill done, because not
everybody agrees with me, agrees
with john, or agrees with the
head of a group or another.
|
| 04:13:50 | >> As we say goodbye, sunday's
super bowl.
|
| 04:13:55 | Senator mccain, you have a lot
of sports packages.
|
| 04:14:02 | >> Yes, I am a big sports fan.
|
| 04:14:07 | Mediocre athletes are the
biggest bands.
|
| 04:14:10 | That is what I was.
|
| 04:14:12 | But, you know, nobody thought
the ravens would get to where
they are, so I am kind of
rooting for them.
|
| 04:14:24 | >> Let's get predictions.
|
| 04:14:27 | >> Close, a couple of points.
|
| 04:14:29 | >> But you are going ravens?
|
| 04:14:33 | >> Yes.
|
| 04:14:33 | >> Senator schumer?
|
| 04:14:36 | >> I went last year.
|
| 04:14:37 | I am a giants fan.
|
| 04:14:40 | I live and breed the giants.
|
| 04:14:43 | It was one of the greatest
experiences of my life.
|
| 04:14:48 | I was not going to go, and it is
expensive and everything else,
and my wife said, "you love the
giants.
|
| 04:14:59 | You may be dead before the wet
-- before they win the next
"
[applause]
that was good logic.
|
| 04:15:10 | So I went, and I loved it.
|
| 04:15:12 | One of the things I am looking
forward to is to see beyond
saying -- beyonce.
|
| 04:15:23 | I think she did a great job at
the inauguration.
|
| 04:15:29 | I look forward to seeing her in
new orleans.
|
| 04:15:33 | She won me over early in my
career.
|
| 04:15:36 | This story in "the post" was
just made up.
|
| 04:15:39 | >> There was a story that said
she had to apologize to senator
schumer, and just to go behind
the curtain, it was said that
you angrily admitted.
|
| 04:15:53 | >> I was on the way out, and
someone said, "has beyonce
"
I was doing a press event about
sandy.
|
| 04:16:06 | It was sunday morning.
|
| 04:16:07 | And on the way out, she put the
microphone forward and said,
"
and I said no, and the headline
was, "chuck schumer demands
"
joe flacco is from new jersey,
almost new york.
|
| 04:16:29 | >> That is sufficient reason.
|
| 04:16:31 | Two point.
|
| 04:16:35 | -- Points.
|
| 04:16:39 | Thank you for coming out.
|
| 04:16:41 | Think bank of america for making
these fantastic conversations
possible, and thank you, senator
schumer and senator mccain.
|
| 04:16:48 | Thank you all.
|
| 04:16:50 | [Applause]
[captioning performed by
national captioning institute]
[captions copyright national
2013]
>> I will see you next time.
|
| 04:17:05 | >> Up next on c-span, former
bush administration commerce
secretary carlos gutierrez talks
about is a group of republicans
for immigration reform.
|
| 04:17:16 | Later, the president's state of
the union address.
|
| 04:17:21 | How foreign and defense policy
will be handled.
|
| 04:17:23 | And then former representative
gabrielle giffords, her husband,
mark kelly, and wayne lapierre
testify on gun violence.
|
| 04:17:36 | Massachusetts governor patrick
appointed the chief of staff as
the interim senate replacement
for a senator john kerry,
william cowan.
|
| 04:17:48 | You can see the entire event on
our website at c-span.org.
|
| 04:17:57 | >> I am not running for office
at any time now or in the
future.
|
| 04:18:08 | The governor actually offered me
this opportunity yesterday.
|
| 04:18:12 | I was aware that I was among the
list of candidates, but as many
of you know, I have focused
since november on planning my
return to the private sector,
and that is what I had been
focused on literally until that
day.
|
| 04:18:27 | So --
>> what can possibly get done?
|
| 04:18:35 | >> There is much to be done.
|
| 04:18:38 | As I mentioned, I am not going
by myself.
|
| 04:18:41 | We have one of the most
experienced congressional
caucuses that is in congress.
|
| 04:18:46 | I am going to work with them.
|
| 04:18:48 | I look forward to working with
senator warren.
|
| 04:18:51 | Good news for all of us is that
I will have the benefit of
senator john kerry's outstanding
staff both here in the state of
massachusetts and in washington,
, so while there may be a
bit of a learning curve while i
find my way around the building,
when I get to the office, I know
I will be met with very
experienced staffers they know i
want to keep moving the agenda
forward very much in the way
senator john kerry has.
|
| 04:19:18 | or, an
interview with stanley
mcchrystal.
|
| 04:19:25 | He is interviewed by an author
and journalist about his
military career and his time as
forces in
afghanistan.
|
| 04:19:34 | Life thursday at noon eastern on
booktv.org.
|
| 04:19:39 | -- Live thursday.
|
| 04:19:43 | Thursday, one day before
stepping down from her position
as secretary of state, hillary
clinton speaks at the council on
foreign relations.
|
| 04:19:52 | We will have live coverage
eastern on
c-span.
|
| 04:19:58 | >> John mccain's 2000 campaign,
when he ran for president, is
the most memorable campaign of
any that I have ever covered,
and it was just -- we will
never see it begin.
|
| 04:20:15 | There he was, facing george w.
|
| 04:20:18 | Bush, who had all of the face
cards of the republican party
backing him, the three
republican governors, new
hampshire, and all of the money,
and john mccain went out and
held over 100 town meetings, and
he stayed until every question
was answered, and you would see
the light bulb.
|
| 04:20:41 | They would ask, "when are we
going to get a patient's bill of
"
and he would say, "we are never
going to get a patient's bill of
"
he was totally open to the
press.
|
| 04:20:56 | I mean, there was a candor and
an openness, sort of a welcome
this week to welcomeness that no
one has seen -- there was sort
of a well, ness that we did not
seen before or after.
|
| 04:21:16 | >> Now, more on immigration
reform with former bush
administration commerce
secretary carlos gutierrez.
|
| 04:21:23 | He talks about his work with the
super pak republicans for
immigration reform.
|
| 04:21:29 | From "washington journal," this
is 40 minutes.
|
| 04:21:40 | carlos gutierrez was
commerce secretary in the george
w. bush administration.
|
| 04:21:43 | Now he's with the group
republicans for immigration
reform, which he co-founded.
|
| 04:21:45 | Thanks for joining us from new
york.
|
| 04:21:47 | This morning.
|
| 04:21:50 | Guest: a pleasure.
|
| 04:21:55 | the headline in the
baltimore sun today --
secretary, what do you think
about the president's remarks
yesterday?
|
| 04:22:01 | It sounds like he will let
congress take the lead if they
can get rolling.
|
| 04:22:04 | Principles are pretty
straightforward and very
similar.
|
| 04:22:09 | You know,it's pretty easy to
agree to a set of principles.
|
| 04:22:12 | The real crunch will come in
when you get into the details
and when you get into the actual
writing of a bill, which the
last time was 700 pages.
|
| 04:22:25 | It gets into a level of
complexity that sometimes we
disregard.
|
| 04:22:28 | I don't think that's the part
about a threat of sending his
own bill was necessary.
|
| 04:22:35 | If we get to the stage where
the president has to send his
bill because the senate is not
making progress on their bill,
then I think we are done.
|
| 04:22:57 | Then it's probably going to be
another five years before we
get to this again.
|
| 04:22:59 | I think that was the kind of
threat that you could make, but
no one wants to be in that
position.
|
| 04:23:04 | The important thing is to have
unity of purpose, get together
and to do a bipartisan approach,
and get this done.
|
| 04:23:09 | Both sides are going to have to
a lot of compromise.
|
| 04:23:10 | let's listen to president
obama's remarked yesterday in
las vegas.
|
| 04:23:13 | [Video clip]
>> every day, like the rest of
us, they go out and try to earn
a living.
|
| 04:23:17 | Often they do that in the
shadow economy, a place where
employers may offer them less
than the minimum wage or make
them work overtime without extra
pay.
|
| 04:23:31 | When that happens, it's not as
bad for them, it's bad for the
entire economy, because all the
businesses that are trying to
do the right thing that are
hiring people legally, paying a
decent wage, following the
rules, they are the ones to
suffer.
|
| 04:23:44 | They have got to compete against
companies that are breaking the
rules.
|
| 04:23:47 | The wages and working
conditions of american workers
are threatened as well.
|
| 04:23:56 | If we are truly committed to
strengthening our middle-class
and providing more ladders of
opportunity to those who are
willing to work hard to make it
into the middle class, we've
got to fix the system.
|
| 04:24:07 | We have to make sure that every
business and every worker in
america is pulling by the same
set of rules.
|
| 04:24:15 | We have to bring in the shadow
economy into the light so that
everybody is held accountable.
|
| 04:24:20 | The businesses and the
immigrants getting on the right
side of the law.
|
| 04:24:29 | Common sense.
|
| 04:24:30 | That's why we need
comprehensive immigration
reform.
|
| 04:24:35 | president obama speaking
yesterday.
|
| 04:24:42 | Secretary gutierrez, the wall
street journal has a piece
today called "obama's
immigrationwere there warning
signs in with the president
said?
|
| 04:25:13 | he did have this threat
of his own bill and things like
but there's no question that we
need low-skilled workers and we
need high skilled workers.
|
| 04:25:26 | We have to really sell on what
-- settle on what it's
temporary, for temporary
workers there must be some
market flexibility.
|
| 04:25:41 | May have someone here on a
temporary basis but to as great
leadership skills.
|
| 04:25:44 | The employer wants to promote
them.
|
| 04:25:46 | It's unfortunate the then that
they have to go back because
they're only temporary.
|
| 04:25:50 | So I think there has to be
simplex ability in the system.
|
| 04:25:56 | These issues you mentioned, they
are so close that this is the
kind of compromise that we need.
|
| 04:26:04 | If the president has to
compromise on a guest worker
program or maybe having some
triggers for the border before
we start allowing people to get
in line for green card, those
should be easy things to
compromise.
|
| 04:26:22 | The important thing is to get
the reform, to move forward, as
the president said, and not get
stalemed and use this as
another political ploy to hurt
republicans.
|
| 04:26:34 | The important thing is the
country and the progress on the
policy.
|
| 04:26:38 | here is what a republican
of texas had to say about the
senate immigration proposal
that we saw two days ago.
|
| 04:26:48 | What is your opinion?
|
| 04:26:49 | what I say to my
colleague, my republican
colleagues, congressman smith,
we cannot continue to dismiss
every type of reform and every
time we try reform with the
"
what I will say to my republican
colleagues, we cannot continue
to dismiss every type of reform,
and every time we try reform
with the word amnesty.
|
| 04:27:38 | If we continue to do that, we
will be sitting here in 20
years.
|
| 04:27:42 | The complexity of our system
will be out of control.
|
| 04:27:46 | We will not be competed with the
rest of the world.
|
| 04:27:48 | They will be doing a lot better
than we are.
|
| 04:27:57 | With all respect, I don't buy
it.
|
| 04:28:01 | The definition of amnesty is a
full pardon with no penalty.
|
| 04:28:06 | No one is talking about that.
|
| 04:28:08 | No one is talking about handing
these folks a passport.
|
| 04:28:12 | No one is talking about a full
pardon without penalty.
|
| 04:28:16 | That to come forward and do a
background check, they have to
pay a fine of back taxes, and
then they can achieve legal
status, if they want
citizenship, which not all of
thedo.
|
| 04:28:33 | There is a separate process for
that.
|
| 04:28:36 | One of the principals is, they
have to get in line and wait
their turn.
|
| 04:28:46 | We were beyond dismissing issues
of natural consequence and a
huge economic consequence of the
future with one word.
|
| 04:28:56 | I say that on both sides.
|
| 04:28:57 | We've got to be thoughtful and
be strategic, but I think we are
at the stage where we need more
than one word here.
|
| 04:29:06 | We've got to debate this and
come to a way of fixing our
system.
|
| 04:29:14 | >> Here are the numbers to call.
|
| 04:29:16 | We have a line set up for legal
and illegal immigrants.
|
| 04:29:45 | Democrats, 202-737-0001.
|
| 04:29:46 | Republicans, 202-737-0002.
|
| 04:29:47 | Independents, 202-628-0205.
|
| 04:29:48 | Tell us about the group you co-
founded.
|
| 04:29:49 | it is a group to reach
out to republicans to provide
support to those republicans who
want to support immigration
reform.
|
| 04:30:08 | This is first and foremost an
economic priority.
|
| 04:30:09 | We cannot grow without
immigration.
|
| 04:30:11 | Have proof of that.
|
| 04:30:15 | Anytime we have clamped down on
immigration, we have seen it in
our economy.
|
| 04:30:25 | This is a first and foremost an
economic imperative.
|
| 04:30:28 | Many republicans know and see
that.
|
| 04:30:33 | We would provide the
marketplace with education
materials so that people
understand this is the right
thing to do.
|
| 04:30:45 | We have agreed we're not going
to put people on buses and
747's.
|
| 04:30:57 | We're also not going to say,
this is a passport for
everybody.
|
| 04:31:02 | We know the solution is in the
middle.
|
| 04:31:08 | That is what we have to work on.
|
| 04:31:12 | Rejecting a notion because of a
lack of conviction for
immigration is going to make
matters worse.
|
| 04:31:24 | We have a disadvantage versus
canada and australia.
|
| 04:31:28 | They have updated their system.
|
| 04:31:30 | Hours dates back to the 1950's,
1960's, 1970's, and 1980's.
|
| 04:31:36 | to take a super pac aimed
at electing republicans
dedicated to reforming
immigration.
|
| 04:32:05 | Let's go to the phones.
|
| 04:32:14 | Caller: good morning.
|
| 04:32:16 | I would like to set the record
straight.
|
| 04:32:21 | There are not 11 million
illegal aliens in this country.
|
| 04:32:27 | There were more like 26 million.
|
| 04:32:31 | Obama wants to extend the
invitation to come there to
these people's families.
|
| 04:32:44 | We could end up with 35 million
people.
|
| 04:32:46 | 70% Of the people are from
mexico and south america.
|
| 04:32:48 | This is why obama was able to
get back in as president.
|
| 04:33:00 | We should not be in a position
where one ethnic group is able
to determine the outcome of
election.
|
| 04:33:15 | 47% Of these people are
receiving some form of public
assistance.
|
| 04:33:21 | we will get a response
from secretary gutierrez.
|
| 04:33:23 | I don't know what the
source of your numbers are.
|
| 04:33:25 | I have never heard those
numbers.
|
| 04:33:26 | They sound incredibly inflated.
|
| 04:33:31 | The thing about immigration
that we should think about is
that the reason we have
undocumented workers in the
country is that our laws are
dysfunctional.
|
| 04:33:42 | If businesses cannot hire a
worker with documentation,
either they go out of business
or they hire whoever they can.
|
| 04:33:59 | These folks have come to the
u.s. because their jobs.
|
| 04:34:01 | They did not come seeking
welfare.
|
| 04:34:07 | Undocumented unemployment is
lower than the national average
because they come to fill jobs
that would be vacant if they
were not here.
|
| 04:34:22 | When the job market is no
longer market, they will not
come.
|
| 04:34:27 | We need to fix our laws so are
system enables us to bring in
the workers we need to grow our
economy legally.
|
| 04:34:41 | the caller mentioned the
term 47% above those who use
public services.
|
| 04:34:47 | That is a phrase mitt romney
used.
|
| 04:34:53 | You were working with the mitt
romney campaign.
|
| 04:34:57 | There was some criticism since
the campaign wound down.
|
| 04:35:04 | we have talked about the
process -- the governor had to
take some positions in order to
get nominated or to be the
party's candidate.
|
| 04:35:22 | Then take different positions
in the national election.
|
| 04:35:29 | That is a system the party
should be talking about.
|
| 04:35:35 | It is very tough in this day
and age.
|
| 04:35:39 | The idea of self-deportation.
|
| 04:35:45 | I think it was very poor advice.
|
| 04:35:47 | What it said to immigrants was get out, we
do not what you
here.
|
| 04:35:54 | He talked about having a
comprehensive reform plan in
his first year.
|
| 04:36:12 | People were still asking about
his statement of self-
deportation.
|
| 04:36:17 | I think that was a part of
whatever criticism I may have
had.
|
| 04:36:25 | I believe we misread the
immigrant population.
|
| 04:36:36 | They would say in polls, we want
education and immigration would
be number 5 or number 6.
|
| 04:36:42 | Immigrants are not worried
about that anymore, they are
that's
not true.
|
| 04:36:50 | Immigrants want them to know
and the word get those vibes
from our party and our
candidate.
|
| 04:37:09 | It is a feel that people have
about who wants to be in this
country.
|
| 04:37:18 | teresa is a legal
immigrant.
|
| 04:37:26 | Good morning.
|
| 04:37:28 | Caller: good morning.
|
| 04:37:31 | I have been in this country for
12 years.
|
| 04:37:39 | I did my master's and then my
ph.d.
|
| 04:37:41 | Right now I'm working with an h-
1 visa.
|
| 04:37:45 | I have tried to apply to a
waiver.
|
| 04:37:52 | They keep on refusing me.
|
| 04:37:55 | I have my ph.d.
|
| 04:37:59 | I'm becoming so frustrated.
|
| 04:38:01 | It is easier to become an
illegal immigrant in this
country.
|
| 04:38:11 | It sends a message out there.
|
| 04:38:12 | Don't go through the line.
|
| 04:38:15 | It is so frustrating you try to
do the right thing.
|
| 04:38:22 | They take somebody's social
security number.
|
| 04:38:27 | There are americans in this
country that do not want to
work.
|
| 04:38:33 | It is easier to do things the
illegal way.
|
| 04:38:39 | They should find a way to help
people that want to go through
the right system to be legal
immigrants.
|
| 04:38:52 | I have spent almost $20,000 and
that is from private loans.
|
| 04:38:56 | You are taking loans and you
cannot pay for it.
|
| 04:39:02 | It is beneficial to be an
illegal immigrant.
|
| 04:39:12 | Host: thank you, teresa.
|
| 04:39:13 | it is an excellent
comment and a great example of
what is wrong with our system.
|
| 04:39:21 | To follow legal channels has
become more difficult then to
find a way of going around the
rules.
|
| 04:39:37 | The rules and laws do not work.
|
| 04:39:38 | They are too bureaucratic.
|
| 04:39:40 | You have to go through four
different agencies.
|
| 04:39:47 | Four months go by and the
harvest is over.
|
| 04:39:55 | The system is not helping her.
|
| 04:39:57 | Our quotas for that segment of
immigration are too low.
|
| 04:40:07 | We need to increase those.
|
| 04:40:10 | We have companies that are
building research and
development centers in canada.
|
| 04:40:21 | It is a great example of why we
have to fix the legal
immigration system to prevent
the undocumented immigration
system.
|
| 04:40:34 | carlos gutierrez is the
co-founder of the super pacs,
as been for immigration reform.
|
| 04:40:42 | We have some comments on
this
is from rick.
|
| 04:40:48 | Tj says --
host: velo tweets in.
|
| 04:41:04 | Diana from tampa.
|
| 04:41:15 | Caller: thank you for having me.
|
| 04:41:17 | I believe he is from cuba.
|
| 04:41:27 | My husband came here over 30
years ago from cuba.
|
| 04:41:30 | He is not seen his daughters or
grandchildren.
|
| 04:41:32 | He pays $400 every year just to
stay in the united states.
|
| 04:41:39 | We need to open up to cuba.
|
| 04:41:44 | The economy there has been such
a struggle.
|
| 04:41:52 | We should be more empathetic to
the spanish people.
|
| 04:42:03 | Most of these companies that
hire undocumented workers, most
are republicans.
|
| 04:42:12 | I think they play on the other
side of the fence.
|
| 04:42:18 | They wanted to immigration but
the pay them $5 or $6 an hour.
|
| 04:42:24 | I believe the mexicans that
want to work hard, we should
have them stay here and try to
get their citizenship.
|
| 04:42:39 | Thank you.
|
| 04:42:43 | if I could say to the
caller, when I came from cuba,
we are immigrants and political
refugees.
|
| 04:42:59 | One thing I remember about the
country was help welcoming it
was.
|
| 04:43:16 | I felt that people wanted me to
succeed and people would
celebrate my success.
|
| 04:43:28 | I did not speak a word of
english.
|
| 04:43:31 | But people were welcoming.
|
| 04:43:32 | In the case of the undocumented
workers, there is a bigger
argument here, I think it is a
time for national
reconciliation.
|
| 04:43:37 | These folks across the border
10, 15 years ago or five years
ago.
|
| 04:43:39 | Some people come through
airlines.
|
| 04:43:45 | "Go north and you can find a
"
they found employers that were
willing to hire them.
|
| 04:43:57 | They had to be hired.
|
| 04:43:59 | The legal processes do not work
very well.
|
| 04:44:05 | Some do not work at all.
|
| 04:44:07 | They have been making our
produce and growing our fruits
and vegetables and mowing are
lawns, doing all these things
we take for granted.
|
| 04:44:24 | There is something unfair about
putting all the burden on the
one individual who came over to
do just one thing and that is
to work.
|
| 04:44:36 | I think we have to come to
grips with that.
|
| 04:44:42 | There is a matter of national
character and honor that says
we have to admit we have a
problem.
|
| 04:44:51 | We are all accountable.
|
| 04:44:53 | Let's work together to get this
fixed.
|
| 04:44:56 | I would like to thin history
will look back and say that was
a moment of great character for
and not a blemish on
our history because we do not
have a great history when it
comes to low-skilled
immigration or new immigrants.
|
| 04:45:23 | It happens to be hispanic
immigrants.
|
| 04:45:31 | Go back 50, 60 years ago.
|
| 04:45:34 | We went through the chinese
exclusion act.
|
| 04:45:39 | Every group has faced the
problem.
|
| 04:45:48 | The power of immigration has
always won out.
|
| 04:45:53 | Belief in our system.
|
| 04:45:56 | This idea that immigrants will
change our language and take
over our cultural is a lack of
confidence in the american
magic.
|
| 04:46:07 | and
want to be american.
|
| 04:46:11 | They want to be part of the
mainstream.
|
| 04:46:19 | We only speak one language.
|
| 04:46:21 | Chinese companies can read our
plans but we cannot read theirs.
|
| 04:46:32 | We should have more faith in
american society and this
incredible experiment that has
been american democracy.
|
| 04:46:43 | People come here and become
americans.
|
| 04:46:49 | That is our great advantage.
|
| 04:46:54 | a headline in "national
"
looking at a chart from
"
131 of the house republicans
represent districts that are
mostly white.
|
| 04:47:29 | Republicans have the majority of
those.
|
| 04:47:33 | The numbers diminish.
|
| 04:47:37 | Is there any incentive to vote
for immigration reform?
|
| 04:47:40 | Guest: yes, absolutely.
|
| 04:47:49 | If we are the party of growth
and the party of prosperity and
free markets and individual
opportunities, then we must be
the party of immigration.
|
| 04:48:06 | There is a strategic
inconsistency of being the
free-market party and
individual opportunity and
upward mobility and all the
great things our free-market
system can do and not be the
party of immigration.
|
| 04:48:24 | So immigration is an important
economic imperative.
|
| 04:48:33 | I am pleased to see it members
like paul ryan, who is a leader.
|
| 04:48:36 | People will follow john mccain
and marco rubio and others.
|
| 04:48:41 | It is the right thing for our
country and the right thing for
our economy.
|
| 04:48:51 | Republicans have -- should have
more interest in getting this
reform passed than democrats.
|
| 04:49:01 | I think we won it for all the
right reasons and that is
because we want the hispanic
votes.
|
| 04:49:16 | It is the right policy.
|
| 04:49:17 | we must do better at has
a different opinion on twitter.
|
| 04:49:26 | Let's go to ann in florida.
|
| 04:49:28 | Good morning.
|
| 04:49:30 | Caller: good morning.
|
| 04:49:33 | I think you're the most
wonderful example of
immigration in our country.
|
| 04:49:46 | I am a little nervous.
|
| 04:49:47 | I am a republican.
|
| 04:49:48 | I was concerned about the
speech by marco rubio.
|
| 04:49:52 | How do you think our current
administration president is
going to follow in forcing
identification?
|
| 04:50:03 | I'm in florida.
|
| 04:50:05 | How the enforcement by the
republican platform that they
unveiled will be addressed in
terms of following our border
rules and that sort of thing.
|
| 04:50:30 | Thank you.
|
| 04:50:34 | Guest: thank you.
|
| 04:50:38 | That is a good question.
|
| 04:50:43 | Senator rubio issued a press
release talking about that
aspect of it.
|
| 04:50:49 | The president did not identify
border triggers before we allow
legazed undocumented workers
to apply for a green card if
they choose to do so.
|
| 04:51:06 | The subject of a security is
the essential.
|
| 04:51:10 | No country in the world needs
to be apologetic for one to
secure its borders and to know
who is in the country.
|
| 04:51:21 | That is a right of every
sovereign country.
|
| 04:51:31 | Our situation is complex.
|
| 04:51:32 | It is the borders and the
airports.
|
| 04:51:39 | A lot of it is a system of the
physical border but also being
able to track who enters at an
airport, the visa expired but
they have not left.
|
| 04:51:51 | We have a lot more technology
than the last time we tried
this.
|
| 04:52:01 | We can do things like provide
the private sector with
verification tools that enable
you to get a match on a social
security number, and we should
put that technology to work.
|
| 04:52:18 | It is the border and the
airports and verify who is in
the country and applying for
work.
|
| 04:52:27 | We have the technology to do it.
|
| 04:52:28 | We to ensure we get this done
in a way that makes sense for
our system.
|
| 04:52:37 | That will help us in many years
if we have that kind of system.
|
| 04:52:45 | President obama promised he
would do this in his first year.
|
| 04:52:47 | He did not.
|
| 04:52:50 | The worry is we go at this
again and it doesn't work.
|
| 04:52:56 | The president gets all the
political points.
|
| 04:52:58 | The republicans get all the
political blame.
|
| 04:53:04 | A political victory but not a
strategic victory for the
country.
|
| 04:53:15 | We need to make this a national
purpose of policy and not an exercise in
politics.
|
| 04:53:26 | I hope we'll keep our eye on
that.
|
| 04:53:28 | That is going to be the big
challenge.
|
| 04:53:33 | Host: we have an idea from jbc.
|
| 04:53:42 | Al in rhode island, hi, al.
|
| 04:53:46 | Caller: good morning.
|
| 04:53:47 | Thank you for c-span.
|
| 04:53:53 | The american people want
immigration but they want legal
immigration.
|
| 04:54:01 | We do not one no favoritism for
anybody.
|
| 04:54:06 | You talk about language.
|
| 04:54:09 | The chinese came here.
|
| 04:54:11 | It is not right.
|
| 04:54:18 | This president is so far off the
ball.
|
| 04:54:27 | We will bring 11 million more
people into this country when
we don't put those people to
work first?
|
| 04:54:34 | I did not think that is right.
|
| 04:54:41 | We have other problems that are
more important.
|
| 04:54:51 | We're flooding this country
with unskilled workers.
|
| 04:54:56 | the only reason on
skilled workers come to this
country is because there is
unskilled work that needs to be
done that frankly americans do
not want to do anymore.
|
| 04:55:10 | Go back decades, there was a
time when you worked on the
family farm.
|
| 04:55:17 | There was a time somebody would
be a truck driver.
|
| 04:55:22 | That is life and my kids will
do better.
|
| 04:55:27 | Americans are very different
today and their skill levels is
higher.
|
| 04:55:37 | These are job openings that the
economy has.
|
| 04:55:41 | If we went back 20 years, we
would not have grown as fast as
we have grown.
|
| 04:55:50 | As part of this national
reconciliation and being big
about this, these undocumented
workers have made a tremendous
contribution to our economy.
|
| 04:56:04 | People like to talk about
fairness.
|
| 04:56:10 | All of a sudden we say, get out.
|
| 04:56:16 | I think we have to do the right
thing for the brand equity of
the u.s.
|
| 04:56:33 | did you want to respond
to a tweet about getting the
border part done first?
|
| 04:56:46 | until we fix our laws,
we will not care rid of
undocumented immigration or
illegal immigration.
|
| 04:56:58 | The reason we have illegal
immigration is because we do
not have legal processes to be
able to bring people in.
|
| 04:57:10 | It is like our laws do not
recognize that immigration is
an annual affair.
|
| 04:57:19 | We need immigrants every single
year.
|
| 04:57:26 | Our work force has to be
growing every single year.
|
| 04:57:30 | Unless we have that
understanding and to make up
for that reality through our
laws, we are going to have a
dysfunctional system.
|
| 04:57:45 | I agree with the caller.
|
| 04:57:49 | Border security and being able
to decide who comes into the
country is very much our
obligation and right.
|
| 04:58:00 | Unless we fix our laws, congress
is making it difficult to stop
immigration.
|
| 04:58:06 | Host: mike is our last call.
|
| 04:58:14 | I am a democrat and
african american in this
country.
|
| 04:58:22 | The congressman that yelled
"you lied" to the president --
I wonder if he tells the truth.
|
| 04:58:32 | 11 Million illegal immigrants
staying in this country.
|
| 04:58:42 | Will they qualify for obamacare?
|
| 04:58:46 | When you say immigrants, she
know the people are talking
about illegal immigrants.
|
| 04:59:00 | They are not talking about
legal immigrants.
|
| 04:59:08 | Guest: that is a good point.
|
| 04:59:10 | Part of this issue is not just
what you do about the 11
million undocumented.
|
| 04:59:16 | They are here and working and
have families.
|
| 04:59:19 | The point about obamacare --
the president talked about
entitlements if they choose to
get in line and apply for a
|
| 00:00:00 | European
countries because of the
entitlement systems.
|
| 00:00:06 | They go for the wrong reasons.
|
| 00:00:10 | I would hate to think future
for
our entitlements.
|
| 00:00:16 | It has never been that way.
|
| 00:00:17 | They come here to work.
|
| 00:00:20 | They know their children will
do better than they will.
|
| 00:00:27 | They also want to dream.
|
| 00:00:28 | We want to be careful about
what kind of a country we are.
|
| 00:00:34 | People are going for the
entitlements and not the work
opportunity.
|
| 00:00:46 | secretary carlos
gutierrez, thank you for
joining us this morning.
|
| 00:01:01 | On the next "washington journal,
auto
industry.
|
| 00:01:08 | We'll preview what is expected
for car sales this year and talk
about all rossetti in federal
regulation.
|
| 00:01:14 | Our guest is matt blunt.
|
| 00:01:22 | Washington journal is live on c-
span every day at 7:00 a.m.
|
| 00:01:29 | Eastern.
|
| 00:01:35 | Wednesday, senior executives at
honda and chrysler endorse new
regulations on gasoline.
|
| 00:01:43 | You can see the entire event at
our website, c-span.org.
|
| 00:01:53 | >> Given the fact that gasoline
seems to be the dominant choice
of fuel for the foreseeable
future, as we talked about in
the previous panel, moving
forward on regulations to lower
the sulfur in gasoline at a
hollywood to the white house
review today after being a
little bit delayed because of
the presidential election.
|
| 00:02:14 | Nobody wants to be perceived as
creating higher gasoline prices.
|
| 00:02:20 | I would like to hear from the
automakers about what your
position in on these
regulations and why you think
these are important steps to
take.
|
| 00:02:36 | >> Just by the nature of how it
worked out, epa did join
the debate, as we start working
towards national standards at
that time.
|
| 00:02:51 | We have been supportive of
having those rules released a
year ago.
|
| 00:03:00 | Fuel is a very important
feature and the sulfur content
-- they need low-sulfur fuel to
live.
|
| 00:03:16 | It's great to see that potential
coming.
|
| 00:03:21 | The next that has to be opening
it up to lower carbon fuels in
general and that will be the
discussions we have over the
next few years.
|
| 00:03:32 | >> Tier 3 is really about two
things.
|
| 00:03:39 | Lower sulfur, which is required
to get the lower cost catalyst
so that we can burn the
gasoline as cleanly as
possible, and about phasing in
-- california has a cleaner
regs, and we are all in favor of
having won national program
which consistent rules,
regardless of the state.
|
| 00:04:16 | It is really about getting
california level fuels' and we
are all very supportive of it.
|
| 00:04:24 | Will be a trivial amount of
increase in the cost of gasoline
and I think everyone should be
supportive of it.
|
| 00:04:33 | >> Coming up next, a preview of
the president's state of the
union address and how foreign
and defense policy will be
handled.
|
| 00:04:42 | Then senator kirsten gillibrand
discusses bipartisan safety
legislation.
|
| 00:04:49 | Later, former representative
gabrielle giffords on gun
violence.
|
| 00:05:00 | >> On thursday, a hearing on
workers and retirement
savings.
|
| 00:05:05 | Live coverage from the senate
health education and labor and
pynchon's committee.
|
| 00:05:11 | 00
a.m. eastern on c-span3.
|
| 00:05:20 | >> We are the best country in
the world.
|
| 00:05:26 | What a marvelously stupid thing
to say.
|
| 00:05:29 | Of all the countries in the
world, pretty good.
|
| 00:05:36 | What we have to believe that we
are the best?
|
| 00:05:44 | What does that mean?
|
| 00:05:49 | And once we have to assert it
all of this time?
|
| 00:05:54 | What does it mean to other
people?
|
| 00:06:02 | American products go around the
world, so you are observed by
people in every corner of the
world.
|
| 00:06:13 | And we teach them not to like
us.
|
| 00:06:17 | Gratuitously.
|
| 00:06:20 | >> Randall robinson, taking your
calls, e-mail, facebook
comments, and tweet
sunday at noon eastern on book
tv on c-span2.
|
| 00:06:39 | >> President obama is set to
deliver the state of the union.
|
| 00:06:46 | A discussion on how foreign
policy and national security
issues will be handled in the
president's second term.
|
| 00:06:54 | This is an hour and 20 minutes.
|
| 00:06:56 | >> Good afternoon, folks.
|
| 00:07:07 | Good afternoon, folks.
|
| 00:07:10 | Can I get everyone to sit down
and to quietly?
|
| 00:07:13 | Thank you.
|
| 00:07:14 | I think we are going to start
here.
|
| 00:07:23 | Good afternoon, everybody.
|
| 00:07:27 | I am the vice-president for
foreign defense studies at the
american enterprise institute.
|
| 00:07:32 | Welcome to the first in our
annual series of state of the
union policy events.
|
| 00:07:38 | Every year, aei scholars come
together and we look forward to
the challenges of the year ahead
and policy questions that have
been raised and are likely to
come up, and try and look
forward a little bit, think a
little bit about what the right
answers are to the questions
that are being posed.
|
| 00:07:57 | It is and as the events we do
with only aei fellows.
|
| 00:08:02 | We are happy to be -- together
with them.
|
| 00:08:05 | I will lay out what the other
events are at the end of the
session.
|
| 00:08:08 | Let me introduce those who are
here with me at the table.
|
| 00:08:11 | On the far left, so to speak,
is a resident scholar at aei in
asian studies.
|
| 00:08:25 | He specializes in japan.
|
| 00:08:27 | Next to him is fred nagin and
executive director of our
critical brett project.
|
| 00:08:39 | Next to me is tom donnelly, co-
director of our center for
security studies.
|
| 00:08:48 | We are going to try and have a
bit of a conversation here,
although because we have three
microphones, apparently from the
year 1974, that may be a little
bit difficult.
|
| 00:09:00 | I know you will be patient with
us as we try and go back and
forth a litt bit and make it a
little bit more likely for you.
|
| 00:09:22 | We have an audience on the
outside, so we will talk a
little more fully and less in
shorthand about some of the
issues that are familiar to all
of you.
|
| 00:09:33 | Sequestration, things we can
refer to in a word.
|
| 00:09:35 | I will ask my colleagues to be a
little bit more fulsome in
describing themselves can have a
complete discussion with the
rest of the world who watches
this on streaming video.
|
| 00:09:46 | In any case, we have the state
of the union address coming up
soon.
|
| 00:09:50 | I suspect that much like the
inaugural address that obama
gave, it will be pretty light on
national security, of this
national security is not really
a huge priority right now.
|
| 00:10:02 | We are nation-building here at
home, something that not just
candidate obama, but also
candidate romney, agreed about.
|
| 00:10:12 | We are looking at unprecedented
cuts in spending on national
security.
|
| 00:10:16 | We are looking at the prospect
of drawing down from
afghanistan.
|
| 00:10:23 | We are looking at a lot of
changes.
|
| 00:10:25 | Not just here in the united
states, but in the world.
|
| 00:10:29 | One of the questions I know that
we have is whether we are ready
for the exchanges.
|
| 00:10:35 | I suspect that most of us
believe we are not.
|
| 00:10:38 | Tom, make -- maybe you could
start as out and talk about the
sequestration that paul ryan
told us this weekend is going to
happen.
|
| 00:10:50 | >> It is a prediction that at
this point seems like a
certainty, but I would argue it
has been a near certainty once
beat sequestration provision was
written into the budget control
act.
|
| 00:11:10 | I will talk a bit about
sequestration per se, but i
would regard it as a symptom and
not the disease itself.
|
| 00:11:18 | The disease itself is erosion to
the point of vanishing, almost,
of the bipartisan political
consensus for military string,
for peace through strength, as
people used to say.
|
| 00:11:35 | That is really something that
over the course of my career has
been a touchstone, something
that people could build upon.
|
| 00:11:43 | You could argue about what kind
of strength we could have, the
quality of the strength, these
bert -- these forces versus
those forces.
|
| 00:11:56 | There was a bipartisan condition
that american military power was
a necessary condition in a
dangerous world.
|
| 00:12:02 | And that was a good thing.
|
| 00:12:04 | I think both those underlying
pieces of political consensus
have evaporated.
|
| 00:12:13 | Let's talk a bit about
sequestration and the gruesome
budget numbers the defense
department faces.
|
| 00:12:19 | ryan has
acknowledged, again what I would
say has been in the cards from
the start, that there is going
to be yet another round of
defense cuts this year, about
$55 billion will be sequestered,
in ways that will be equally
injurious to the department.
|
| 00:12:46 | It is not just that this is an
automatic, across-the-board meat
cleaver approach, but there was
some wiggle room granted to the
president, particularly, he has
chosen to preserve personnel
benefits.
|
| 00:13:03 | The cuts that have to be made
coming as they will, about
halfway through the budget year
will fall disproportionately on
weapons procurement and
research, but in particular, on
the operations that go for
making trained and ready units
for deployment.
|
| 00:13:26 | Because the set of accounts also
includes things that are sort
of automatically of certain
amount of health care spending
for defense health programs, it
means that an even larger
burden will fall on those
relatively rapid spending
accounts that are most directly
associated with making units
ready to deploy to combat
theaters.
|
| 00:13:52 | I am sure the department will
say -- in fact last week, karen
did he said we will manage these
cuts in a way that non critical
readiness accounts will be
protected.
|
| 00:14:08 | When you come down to it,
there's not much that is not
preclinical to readiness.
|
| 00:14:15 | -- That is not pretty critical
to readiness.
|
| 00:14:20 | Buying ammunition and gasoline,
paying the contractors who run
the ranges, who masquerade as
enemy combatants at training
centers, and so on and so forth.
|
| 00:14:33 | The idea that this is not going
to have a pretty quick effect on
combat effectiveness of guys and
gals going into harm's way, that
is just eight fiction.
|
| 00:14:48 | -- That is just krugman.
|
| 00:14:53 | -- Just a fiction.
|
| 00:14:58 | It is more likely that the
president's 2014 budget will
chart a course forward for the
defense department's, where in
sequestration level spending
becomes the ceiling and not the
floor.
|
| 00:15:13 | We have no real clue what his
thinking is other than what he
has revealed in his inaugural
speech.
|
| 00:15:19 | But he is not a guy who believes
the tide of war is receding, and
even if it is not receding,
there's not much of a war that
the united states should get
involved in.
|
| 00:15:32 | Therefore, we can afford to
reduce military spending
investments in military power,
reinvest it elsewhere, not so
much cut the deficit, but use
the money saved for his
priorities, his domestic
priorities.
|
| 00:15:58 | >> This is the problem with some
of us having three mics.
|
| 00:16:08 | Part of the problem is that --
the notion that we do not have
wars we want to fight.
|
| 00:16:17 | In some ways that is an
acceptable notion.
|
| 00:16:20 | A man who was selected as
commander-in-chief gets to make
those decisions.
|
| 00:16:28 | In some ways he is absolutely
right to suggest that he has a
mandate in these areas.
|
| 00:16:33 | The real question is the impact
these decisions have on the
environment that the u.s. is in.
|
| 00:16:39 | For most of history, we have
maintained a strong military,
not so that we can fight, but so
that we can not fight.
|
| 00:16:48 | The other.
|
| 00:16:49 | That time made that is
important -- the other point
that tom made is to understand
what is involved in military
operations.
|
| 00:17:06 | There is a piece on the web that
explains exactly what it is we
can do with the troops we have
at the president makes critical
decisions about afghanistan.
|
| 00:17:17 | It is not just about bureaucrats
.
|
| 00:17:21 | Fighting a war is a big
logistical exercise.
|
| 00:17:26 | Do you does want to talk about
that and several surrounding
decisions?
|
| 00:17:30 | >> We have become very
accustomed to throwing around
numbers of troops, and people
have gotten way too comfortable
with pulling numbers out of the
air and discussing them as
though they were serious.
|
| 00:17:41 | The effect of that is that very
few americans actually
understand that there is a
method for figuring out how many
troops are actually needed to
accomplish something.
|
| 00:17:52 | When the recommendation comes
from a military commander, this
cannot just, as this white house
seems to think, the commander
asking for everything he thinks
he might possibly get as a
negotiating tactic, because he
always wants more troops.
|
| 00:18:09 | It is the result of a very
complicated staff process.
|
| 00:18:12 | That can only be performed by
military staff.
|
| 00:18:15 | When your numbers coming out of
the white house, you should be
asking yourself, which military
step did the analysis to figure
out how many troops are actually
required?
|
| 00:18:25 | As an example, when the
president talks about keeping
3000 troops in afghanistan, here
is the problem.
|
| 00:18:33 | You cannot keep a base in
afghanistan with only 3000
troops.
|
| 00:18:39 | Because once you start looking
at what the country's
requirements are on the ground
in order for those troops to be
safe, to be fed, to have
ammunition, in order for the
basic functions of a military
organization to be carried out
-- remember the troops need to
get paid.
|
| 00:18:55 | Forms need to be submitted.
|
| 00:19:00 | Since the days of the cold war,
we have report -- regarded as
the burtless, are actually vital
to keeping things working in the
field.
|
| 00:19:09 | When you start asking questions
like how many troops would we
need a base in afghanistan, you
quickly say which bass?
|
| 00:19:18 | Because it matters.
|
| 00:19:22 | You need to be able to land
fully loaded cargo aircraft,
because it is a landlocked
country, which nobody seems to
be tracking on in this entire
discussion.
|
| 00:19:38 | My colleague and many other seem
to have forgotten the value of
having a seacoast if you are
trying to do logistics from
offshore, as it were.
|
| 00:19:48 | There is no offshore in
afghanistan.
|
| 00:19:50 | There needs to be a 10,000 foot
runway.
|
| 00:19:53 | That means someone needs to
secure the perimeter around the
runway.
|
| 00:19:56 | That is a big task.
|
| 00:19:58 | We know what the threat is.
|
| 00:20:00 | The enemy groups have repeatedly
attacked our bases with multiple
cocotte bombs, followed by light
infantry, followed by rockets.
|
| 00:20:10 | That is standard practice.
|
| 00:20:12 | We know something about what
kind of defensive perimeter is
required, and we can count that
up.
|
| 00:20:18 | Other things people don't tend
to track on, do you want
american soldiers in combat to
have medical care or not?
|
| 00:20:25 | What is the attrition rate the
president is willing to accept
among wounded soldiers in the
wars to which he has sent them?
|
| 00:20:34 | If you want soldiers to survive
the kind of injuries that they
encounter in these operations,
you need to have a free medical
clinic somewhere in that
theater.
|
| 00:20:44 | If you have only one base, it
must be at that base.
|
| 00:20:50 | A medical clinic is 200 people.
|
| 00:20:55 | We are going to do this all with
predators drones.
|
| 00:20:58 | The great thing about bronze is
they are unmanned systems.
|
| 00:21:06 | I quote a general on the subject
of what a misnomer is to call
them unmanned aerial systems.
|
| 00:21:10 | The only thing that is an
unmanned is the actual plane.
|
| 00:21:14 | You have ground crews for them
because they need to be fuelled,
repaired, armed, and you need to
have about 50 people on the
ground for every four predators
that you want to have.
|
| 00:21:28 | None of which is very
interesting when you put 50,000
troops in a theater, which is
one of the reasons why no one
has heard these kind of
discussions.
|
| 00:21:39 | When you get to the level of
saying I want a cap of 300
troops in the middle of the
hindu kush, then you have to
start getting into these
conversations.
|
| 00:21:51 | Even if by maximum use of
contractors or local security
forces, we could maybe keep 3000
troops there, to coin a phrase,
it would be a self licking ice-
cream cone.
|
| 00:22:07 | It would be able to accish
nothing other than to defend
itself.
|
| 00:22:18 | This is one of the reasons why
it is a good idea in general
terms to let professional
military staff actually go
through a technical process and
figure out exactly what kind of
truth and what varieties are
needed in order to accomplish a
particular mission.
|
| 00:22:35 | It would be helpful if the
president ordering troops into
combat would take seriously the
kind of assessments that he
receives from the people who
know how to do this.
|
| 00:22:49 | >> I think fred will have an
answer for this as well.
|
| 00:22:55 | It is not just the debate about
afghanistan or the wisdom of
staying there.
|
| 00:23:02 | It is about the nature of the
fight as we move forward, 11
plus year now since 9/11, in the
battle against al qaeda.
|
| 00:23:12 | That is the battle that is
taking place in afghanistan but
elsewhere as well.
|
| 00:23:20 | The new paradigm is special
forces.
|
| 00:23:33 | It is that we can do things by
remote control and with what i
like to refer to as a lot of
guys in beards with suitcases
full of cash.
|
| 00:23:46 | Then we really don't need the
men and women that fred is
talking about.
|
| 00:23:50 | Interestingly enough, in the
last week we have seen to budget
related announcements coming out
of the pentagon.
|
| 00:23:57 | I was looking at one just now
because I was trying to remember
the numbers.
|
| 00:24:01 | The pentagon is beefing up its
cyber security force.
|
| 00:24:09 | The other one that is apparently
being beefed up in these times
of budgetary constraints or the
special forces.
|
| 00:24:16 | Tom, would you talk about that
generally, and fred, if you talk
about that in the broader nature
of it.
|
| 00:24:27 | Then we will get to the
nonexistent challenge that faces
us in asia.
|
| 00:24:34 | >> These new capabilities, cyber
operations or whatever you want
to call them, are certainly
necessary and needed, and our
ability to exploit the
electromagnetic spectrum
configured as the internet is
pretty critical.
|
| 00:24:53 | It is not qualitatively
different from other forms of
intelligence gathering or
attempts either by propaganda
means or by direct attack took
back the military or strategic
situations.
|
| 00:25:19 | To some degree it is
understandable, but as fred
alluded, particularly direct
action special operations unit
don't just magically appear and
sustain themselves.
|
| 00:25:36 | If you have seen "zero dark
thirty, is a great picture of
how the intelligence manhunt for
osama bin laden went.
|
| 00:25:53 | The airline appears at this
brown looking base and all these
guys start walking out of a
tent.
|
| 00:25:58 | How did they get here?
|
| 00:26:01 | Who puts feel in their
helicopters?
|
| 00:26:03 | They are sitting around playing
horseshoes when they are not
going out trying to kill bad
guys.
|
| 00:26:13 | The idea that somehow magically
they are up on stage is
ludicrous.
|
| 00:26:21 | These are amazing capabilities
that we have, but if they are
not nested in conventional
forces, even when a counter-
terrorism forces are as
effective as our r and as they
possibly in the world war can
bes not enough to
procure the outcome that we
want.
|
| 00:26:53 | The guys that are the high value
individuals in the tribal
areas, there are a lot more
guys like that aroundthe larger situation
in the
region will not get any better.
|
| 00:27:11 | You could treat the symptoms,
possibly, at great expense, but
we will not secure the
underlying disease.
|
| 00:27:20 | Every time we secure the bad
guy, they will too.
|
| 00:27:26 | >> I think it is interesting to
look back over the last four
years outside of iraq and
afghanistan and at iraq as we
pulled out our forces in 2011.
|
| 00:27:39 | The administration has basically
been experimenting with the
model of relying on drone
strikes and the special forces
rate in yemen and somalia and
libya.
|
| 00:27:53 | Iraq, we are not even doing
that.
|
| 00:27:56 | Syria, we are not doing that.
|
| 00:28:02 | There are more dudes with longer
beards and more money.
|
| 00:28:06 | That is a huge problem because
they have been preferentially
funding jihadis and not the
people we would be supporting.
|
| 00:28:14 | That is because we do not like
putting boots on the ground.
|
| 00:28:21 | We have not yet figured out how
to keep their boots off the
ground.
|
| 00:28:26 | You are saying, no special
forces, either.
|
| 00:28:29 | You are saying you will vaporize
a number of enemies.
|
| 00:28:32 | How has that worked out for us.
|
| 00:28:34 | In the last four years, the
administration has seen the
single most dramatic expansion
under the control of al qaeda in
history.
|
| 00:28:46 | We are pricing ourselves now on
progress we have think -- we
think we have made in yemen.
|
| 00:28:56 | This is one of the things we
track closely on the day to day
basis.
|
| 00:29:03 | If you look at somalia, the
local countries, which are now
themselves under terrorist
attack, have made significant
progress.
|
| 00:29:14 | The notion that some stable
government will put an end to
what has been a long time of
chaos which has allowed this
group to persist is
questionable.
|
| 00:29:27 | I am willing to predict with a
fair amount of confidence that
the french raid in somalia, as
brave as it is and as much as i
like seeing the french go and
kill violent islamists, it is
unlikely to produce any kind of
stable resolution there.
|
| 00:29:46 | In the meantime, we have seen a
flood throughout north africa
that resulted the way we left
behind libya and the failure of
the international coalition to
take steps to help set up a
government company let alone to
set -- to secure the enormous
arms depots that were there.
|
| 00:30:10 | Al qaeda has infiltrated the
spirit it has infiltrated into
egypt and I am here to tell you
over the weekend, the islamic
state of iraq openly announced
it had operations against the
government after demonstrators
were killed.
|
| 00:30:34 | It has been maneuvering small
units, picking off iraqi army
troops.
|
| 00:30:41 | >> Here is the $64,000 question.
|
| 00:30:45 | The big problem for most
am -- it would appear all
we ever talk about is endless
war.
|
| 00:31:11 | I think one of the failings is
making a connection between our
interests and what happens in
these countries.
|
| 00:31:22 | We often speak of them as if
somehow there is an absolute.
|
| 00:31:27 | The vast amount of americans do
not give a -- do not care what
is going on.
|
| 00:31:35 | The same in iraq.
|
| 00:31:37 | Can you quickly make that
connection?
|
| 00:31:42 | >> The problem is it takes one
to make war.
|
| 00:31:46 | We can say we think the tide of
war is receding and we can
persuade ourselves, but if our
enemies think they will attack
us, we have a problem.
|
| 00:31:57 | All the groups I have identified
not only share a common
ideology focused on attacking us
in our homes, but almost all of
them have made attempts to
attack us in our homeland and
will continue.
|
| 00:32:11 | I am not suggesting there is an
easy solution.
|
| 00:32:14 | I am not suggesting I want to
invade every one of these
countries.
|
| 00:32:19 | The experiment of relying on
offshore balancing, drones, and
limited special forces
operations has failed.
|
| 00:32:27 | We need to find another solution
and take the threat seriously.
|
| 00:32:31 | >> Really quickly.
|
| 00:32:33 | At this point, there is almost
more problems than we can deal
with immediately,
simultaneously.
|
| 00:32:44 | The problems that are coming in
syria and egypt and iraq, those
are traditional power centers.
|
| 00:33:03 | They are developed.
|
| 00:33:09 | Other nations in europe have
interests.
|
| 00:33:13 | The saudis have interests.
|
| 00:33:16 | The idea that afghanistan we
used to think of as the dark
side of the moon, africa is on
the other side of the dark side
of the moon, it is rugged and
remote territory, but damascus
is not.
|
| 00:33:34 | Cairo is not.
|
| 00:33:35 | Bank that is not -- baghdad is
not.
|
| 00:33:44 | >> Wonder if you would talk a
little bit about what we see in
the pacific, not just about
china, but about some of the
problems we are seeing.
|
| 00:33:55 | If you can, link it back to some
of the economic questions we
face and the prosperity we have
gotten used to up to a point.
|
| 00:34:10 | >> You know how asia feels now
in these discussions.
|
| 00:34:14 | Waiting for attention to turn to
it.
|
| 00:34:17 | When it comes, it is quick.
|
| 00:34:22 | [Laughter]
let me mention three things i
think will be on the radar that
we should be a rate which aware
of.
|
| 00:34:31 | Then we can get back to the
broader discussion about the
economics.
|
| 00:34:38 | If tom was talking about the
immediate game and fred the
short-term gain, asia sees
itself as a short-term game.
|
| 00:34:47 | They've you what is going on
there in short terms.
|
| 00:34:51 | Whatever I am about to mention,
they do not think it will be
resolved tomorrow.
|
| 00:34:55 | They do not think the trends
they are dealing with are about
to end.
|
| 00:35:00 | It is not just china.
|
| 00:35:02 | It is japan, india, southeast
asia trying to understand what
the correlation of forces and
the balance of power will
become.
|
| 00:35:12 | Part of the frustration asia
feels is that it is so and
media-focused.
|
| 00:35:18 | Understand why that is
important.
|
| 00:35:20 | Their concern is that we do not
have that same analytical
ability to think out as long as
they do and look at how this
world will look into thousand
30.
|
| 00:35:33 | I think for the most part, the
haitians flip through it with
interest and do not take it
seriously.
|
| 00:35:39 | One of those things I think we
should pay attention to that are
of a more immediate concern,
first, north korea.
|
| 00:35:49 | The second is the china-japan's
bat.
|
| 00:35:52 | The third is managing the
overall relationship with china.
|
| 00:35:57 | North korea, we seem to be going
back into the same dance where
we assume we will have an
outrageous action by the north
koreans.
|
| 00:36:10 | Some type of plea will then be
made to come back to the talks.
|
| 00:36:16 | What has changed a little bit is
the rhetoric you see coming out
of north korea now seems to be
sharp.
|
| 00:36:24 | It is not that they have not
crawl at the enemy before.
|
| 00:36:28 | It is becoming very directed at
.
|
| 00:36:32 | If I were in the minds of the
north koreans, I would be more
confident to do that because we
see success on the fronts they
want to have success in.
|
| 00:36:42 | They are now moving along the
road where they can think about
targeting at least parts of
american territory.
|
| 00:36:49 | They do a third nuclear test,
moving down the road to
westernizing and putting it on
these successful missiles.
|
| 00:37:03 | It is hard to overestimate how
jumpy this makes the rest of the
neighborhood.
|
| 00:37:09 | There is a sense of frustration
washington does not take it as
seriously.
|
| 00:37:15 | Whether it has been a republican
or a democratic administration,
the u.s. does nothing.
|
| 00:37:21 | There are no more read the lines
asians think we have with regard
to north korea when we move on
from that -- I want -- the only
question I would raise is, are
we prepared for when our allies
believe they can no longer wait.
|
| 00:37:39 | South korea has made that clear.
|
| 00:37:42 | The japanese with a new
administration are making it
clear, as well.
|
| 00:37:49 | Between china and japan, there
is a group of islands.
|
| 00:37:53 | They sit on rich oil and gas
deposits and form the bottom of
a rigid and important change
that can be used to block the
navy from moving into the
western pacific.
|
| 00:38:06 | They have been a source of daily
confrontations between japan and
china.
|
| 00:38:13 | You have two new
administrations.
|
| 00:38:17 | There is a hardening of
positions on both sides.
|
| 00:38:21 | I have not talked to anyone who
takes them particularly
seriously.
|
| 00:38:27 | We are one incident away from a
major conflict between japan and
china.
|
| 00:38:31 | Do I think there will be a war?
|
| 00:38:33 | No.
|
| 00:38:35 | The tensions in both countries
mean this would not be an easy
area to solve.
|
| 00:38:43 | Whoever backs down, either
before or after conflict will
lose an enormous amount of
credibility.
|
| 00:38:52 | Both sides know that.
|
| 00:38:52 | That is why they are moving
forward.
|
| 00:38:56 | The third thing is managing this
broader relationship.
|
| 00:38:59 | Here is where I will get back to
what danny said.
|
| 00:39:05 | This is the long game.
|
| 00:39:07 | Despite the missteps' you see in
china over the past couple of
years, where sun sought --
sunshine diplomacy was revealed
to the inside and iron fist and
a velvet glove, the territorial
disputes in the south china sea
and east china sea, the pressure
being put on taiwan, means china
has not fundamentally
recalculated its strategic
interests.
|
| 00:39:35 | I think you see this in the
pronouncement.
|
| 00:39:37 | You see they look very
carefully to become an america
they firmly believe is
retrenching.
|
| 00:39:44 | They believe is impoverishing
itself.
|
| 00:39:47 | They believe it is more and more
dysfunctional.
|
| 00:39:53 | This goes right to the core of
what tom was talking about.
|
| 00:39:57 | The asians can count as well as
we can.
|
| 00:40:00 | In fact, better.
|
| 00:40:01 | [Laughter]
they know what the numbers are.
|
| 00:40:06 | People ask me about
sequestration.
|
| 00:40:12 | They know and they are watching,
despite all the red --
rhetoric, that there is a
fundamental reality of how many
resources you have and the size
of the region they are in.
|
| 00:40:24 | To finish up, I have a piece
tomorrow talking about the first
steps the air force is taking on
biting the bullet.
|
| 00:40:34 | It goes right to the core of the
concept of readiness.
|
| 00:40:38 | An official told me the other
day he is expecting when this
hits, when he gets into the
timeframe, that he will go down
to, at best, 40% combat capable
of his forces which have been
engaged.
|
| 00:40:56 | The other percentage will go to
basic mission cave -- basic
mission capable.
|
| 00:41:06 | Our friends understand
regardless of what you say, you
look 10 years down the line.
|
| 00:41:10 | The possibility or likelihood of
america having the same
presence it does today is
unlikely.
|
| 00:41:19 | >> Let me push back at you with
the favored theory of offshore
balancing.
|
| 00:41:27 | This is increasingly popular as
a contract for american national
security.
|
| 00:41:34 | This notion that somehow we can
pull back and yet we can leave
out.
|
| 00:41:44 | When we are urgently called
upon.
|
| 00:41:47 | But we -- when we are not.
|
| 00:41:50 | When it is not a war between
japan and china.
|
| 00:41:53 | We can really allow countries to
manage their own neighborhood
and we can sub contract to
regional powers.
|
| 00:42:06 | Russia, eastern europe, china,
asia.
|
| 00:42:10 | Since people fail to think
through the implications, I want
to see if we can play that out.
|
| 00:42:16 | Our asian allies have not failed
to think this through.
|
| 00:42:19 | >> There are two problems.
|
| 00:42:22 | One is political and one is
practical.
|
| 00:42:24 | Everything you said is right.
|
| 00:42:25 | That falls in the phase zero.
|
| 00:42:33 | If you are not there, present,
the agents question
extraordinarily why you will
come in when the stakes get much
higher.
|
| 00:42:42 | They do not need to think out to
the existential question, hoping
for the good old days.
|
| 00:42:52 | Chinese trading down on them.
|
| 00:42:54 | Does the nuclear umbrella still
hold?
|
| 00:42:56 | For them, the credibility is
your daily presence.
|
| 00:43:00 | We have already been doing
offshore balancing because we
have had the filipinos, our
allies.
|
| 00:43:08 | They came to us and said, are
you backing us up?
|
| 00:43:12 | What are you doing?
|
| 00:43:15 | The administration's response
has been, we take no position on
issues.
|
| 00:43:19 | We want to see the status quo
maintained.
|
| 00:43:21 | I think that is the right
position.
|
| 00:43:24 | Is not for us to defend japan's
territory.
|
| 00:43:28 | It is for us to understand how
the balance of power is
changing.
|
| 00:43:32 | By not reacting, we are changing
the actions of our allies.
|
| 00:43:37 | China has come out on top.
|
| 00:43:39 | The one that is playing out
right now is the most dangerous
of them all.
|
| 00:43:42 | The second part of why balancing
is problematic is going exactly
to what fred is talking about.
|
| 00:43:49 | It is the practical.
|
| 00:43:52 | If you start pulling back from
the region and go to hawaii and
other region that can be better
defended, you have to get back
in when needed.
|
| 00:44:01 | It is extraordinarily expensive.
|
| 00:44:05 | Even in a steady state, you have
to go back in.
|
| 00:44:08 | That means bringing basis back
up to par.
|
| 00:44:11 | That means getting your
logistics training going.
|
| 00:44:14 | As you point out, we do not
think what it takes in this
enormous time from san diego to
the moloch a straight.
|
| 00:44:24 | If we come out, the cost of
going back in, our friends know
it immediately.
|
| 00:44:29 | Even when we have been there for
60 years, how many times do you
see a great hole?
|
| 00:44:34 | Not that much.
|
| 00:44:36 | Thousands of miles of water.
|
| 00:44:38 | >> There is another thing you
all noticed that we did not
bring up.
|
| 00:44:43 | It says something that it did
not come up first and foremost.
|
| 00:44:46 | I did not say anything about
iran.
|
| 00:44:51 | I spent all my time looking at
foreign policy issues and that
is one of my issues.
|
| 00:44:56 | That is increasingly true in
washington.
|
| 00:44:59 | Is it because we defeated the
nuclear weapons program?
|
| 00:45:03 | Is it because our effort of
dialogue has born fruit?
|
| 00:45:07 | Is it because the government has
had second thoughts?
|
| 00:45:11 | Is it because the europeans and
their ongoing dialogue with the
iranian government about the
nuclear program has been
successful?
|
| 00:45:20 | Is it none of the above?
|
| 00:45:22 | The honest answer is it is none
of the above.
|
| 00:45:25 | The biggest problem is that
there is an incredible
blossoming of threats around the
world right now.
|
| 00:45:35 | We had a lot to talk about
before we could come to iran
.
|
| 00:45:44 | Many on the right and left are
bored with it.
|
| 00:45:49 | I think the notion is that
containment is a very good
option.
|
| 00:45:56 | This is the year in which it
will get nuclear weapons.
|
| 00:46:00 | For those of you who have a
slightly longer memory to
remember the united nations
general assembly with the
cartoon that was drawn and it
was said the deadline was the
summer.
|
| 00:46:18 | Stop talking about it.
|
| 00:46:20 | We have both read and written
on this.
|
| 00:46:23 | I wonder if you would like to
pitch a word in.
|
| 00:46:28 | >> I want to throw in a concept
I think is important to
understand us.
|
| 00:46:35 | We look at this consensus
reality.
|
| 00:46:37 | We have decided what ever we all
agree on on -- as being what is
happening in the world is what
is happening in the world.
|
| 00:46:46 | We are not very interested in
the intrusions of reality that
come periodically but in a
limited way through our media
about these things.
|
| 00:46:57 | We agree the diplomatic thing
will work and the iranians are
holding back.
|
| 00:47:02 | That is the reality we are going
with.
|
| 00:47:04 | The reality they are going with
is they will almost certainly
require the -- acquired the
ability to detonate a nuclear
device this year.
|
| 00:47:13 | They will definitely have the
capability to produce the
iranian by almost any estimate
you want.
|
| 00:47:20 | They should be far enough along
in the weapons program to be
able to do that.
|
| 00:47:26 | They are farther along than most
of the consensus estimates that
are periodically leaked by
unknown officials.
|
| 00:47:35 | And, you should be aware of
something else, which is the
estimate of when they will have
acquired the ability to launch
an intercontinental ballistic
missile has not varied over the
past few years and has remained
constant.
|
| 00:47:51 | That is so far into the distant
future we do not need to be
concerned about it.
|
| 00:47:56 | The bottom line is when you look
at the technical reporting,
different from iraq in this
regard, we have international
atomic energy on the ground
every few weeks looking at the
instruments and reporting out
exactly how muchranian they
have an exactly what facilities
they think they have they have
not been allowed to inspect.
|
| 00:48:23 | They will very likely acquired
the capability to have a nuclear
weapon and may be the ability to
put it on a missile.
|
| 00:48:31 | That is reality.
|
| 00:48:33 | Whatever we might talk ourselves
into believing.
|
| 00:48:37 | >> There is at least one
american who thinks about iran
247.
|
| 00:48:46 | His obsession.
|
| 00:48:48 | He is being asked to retire
early.
|
| 00:48:51 | While he is in command, he has
been letting -- letting other
parts of his area of operations
--
that is where the navy is today.
|
| 00:49:20 | We are happy to look the other
way.
|
| 00:49:22 | It just shows you with a
limited overall size ofur
force today and a limited
amount of military resources we
have, we are not fully resources
in afghanistan or doing any of
the other things we should be
doing or be able to do across
the middle east.
|
| 00:49:44 | Neither are we switching or
pivoting to the pacific.
|
| 00:49:48 | When you only have a single chip
to play, that danger actually
rises to the top in many ways
above all other military
contingencies.
|
| 00:50:06 | >> It is interesting to me john
kerry last week, his ppared
statement underscored
aggressively the notion the
president did not want a
containment option for I ran
but wanted to see the program
ended.
|
| 00:50:22 | Interesting because there is
nothing in our policy that
underpins that statement.
|
| 00:50:28 | It was a little bit of a
disconnect from reality.
|
| 00:50:31 | I like that term, consensus
reality.
|
| 00:50:34 | Before we open questions, I want
to touch on two questions
quickly.
|
| 00:50:40 | Maybe three questions.
|
| 00:50:44 | The first is, what do we learn
from the nominations that we
have seen in the national-
security sphere?
|
| 00:50:52 | Senator kerry has benefited
enormously by being the least of
the controversial candidates
that have been nominated.
|
| 00:51:02 | It is very likely his nomination
will fail through the senate
with the greatest of ease.
|
| 00:51:08 | The senator has been the most
controversial.
|
| 00:51:11 | If he had not been nominated and
somebody well qualified and less
controversial had been put in
place, then we would all be
paying attention.
|
| 00:51:26 | He has himself a history of some
controversy on both the left and
right.
|
| 00:51:31 | If we could talk about what the
implications of this art.
|
| 00:51:36 | I will try to put these two
questions together.
|
| 00:51:43 | To explain the question better,
many of us who work in foreign
policy study history.
|
| 00:51:50 | That is what draws you in.
|
| 00:51:52 | In the old days, the appeals
were not exactly as embraced as
they are now.
|
| 00:51:59 | For those of us who did study
history, a lot remember all of
these on interesting countries,
whether it was a checklist of
akia of the time, were the
precursors to larger battles
that could have been dealt with,
had they been dealt with early.
|
| 00:52:17 | I want to think through that
where we see things going but we
take the nominees and I will
throw it open and see who grabs
the mike first.
|
| 00:52:26 | >> You are putting it in front
of my face because you knew i
would volunteer.
|
| 00:52:33 | Let's just compare the senator
to hillary clinton.
|
| 00:52:45 | By that standard, both of the
new nominee is privatized.
|
| 00:52:49 | They are not independent
thinkers.
|
| 00:52:50 | They have no track record of
legislating in an intellectual
sense or advancing important
ideas on military affairs or an
international politics.
|
| 00:53:06 | The underlying cause is the
reflection of the lack of
interest in these issues.
|
| 00:53:11 | >> Anybody else?
|
| 00:53:14 | >> Yes.
|
| 00:53:15 | Another phrase to introduce into
the discussion.
|
| 00:53:19 | The republican party is now
focused on trying to be
responsible about what kind of
fiscal and arm and we leave to
our children and grandchildren.
|
| 00:53:28 | That is good in general terms.
|
| 00:53:30 | We aren't worried about the
deficit -- we are worried about
the deficit.
|
| 00:53:37 | There is a national security
deficit that is growing and will
continue to grow.
|
| 00:53:42 | It is a particularly american
conceit that the world goes away
when he stopped paying attention
to it.
|
| 00:53:49 | The fact of the matter is the
problems we see in the world
will not go away.
|
| 00:53:54 | We do not cause them by looking
at them.
|
| 00:53:57 | We cannot stop and by ignoring
them.
|
| 00:53:59 | The enemies who want to kill us,
and it is amazing how
comfortably we forget the fact
there are large groups,
including the entire state where
leaders wake up every day and
ask themselves what they can do
to kill americans today.
|
| 00:54:19 | That is the consensus reality.
|
| 00:54:22 | We will leave for our children
an incredibley dangerous world
and we will have missed many
opportunities to address
problems before they acquire the
kind of compound interest that
is measured in lives.
|
| 00:54:38 | >> Just to close this up, also
addressed the question of who
actually is expected to be a
part of the alliance structure
if there is any conflict.
|
| 00:54:52 | Are there implications for us?
|
| 00:54:54 | >> Yes.
|
| 00:54:55 | On just the nominations,
quickly, the rebalance of the
administration prefers to call
it a signal pro-active foreign
policy they had, not inheriting
ars.
|
| 00:55:11 | This is something they came up
with.
|
| 00:55:15 | Nominations to me are
uninspiring.
|
| 00:55:16 | I do not think that is a dig at
either man personally.
|
| 00:55:21 | Neither of them have deep asian
experience.
|
| 00:55:26 | The senator has not opined much,
other than to talk about how
china will surpass us in how we
need each other.
|
| 00:55:36 | That is this " -- that is
diplomacy.
|
| 00:55:41 | On senator hagel, he was the
head of the congressional
executive committee on china but
talked solely about development
issues.
|
| 00:55:50 | Those are important.
|
| 00:55:51 | The rule of law and economics
growth.
|
| 00:55:54 | That is fine.
|
| 00:55:55 | That is not the job he is
getting.
|
| 00:55:57 | He has said absolutely nothing
about the rise of china.
|
| 00:56:01 | He has said absolutely nothing
about the as the -- how he will
deal with the rise of china in
an era of budget cuts.
|
| 00:56:11 | It is very troubling.
|
| 00:56:14 | The consensus reality that it
does not matter.
|
| 00:56:17 | So what?
|
| 00:56:18 | He will get in and do the job.
|
| 00:56:20 | I do not think you can take that
for granted.
|
| 00:56:23 | The question of alliances, we
have japan for the first time in
a decade just turning around the
defense budget modestly.
|
| 00:56:31 | $1.60 Billion increase.
|
| 00:56:33 | A good chance.
|
| 00:56:36 | -- Trend.
|
| 00:56:38 | It would be nice to see it
continue.
|
| 00:56:39 | Everybody watches carefully to
see the leading indicator, which
is us.
|
| 00:56:44 | What they see in taiwan is a
country rushing to the acids to
make sure nothing becomes
between it and china.
|
| 00:56:51 | Therefore, not only are we
losing credibility over whether
the united states would
intervene in that scenario, but
we cannot expect the type of
support that would be required.
|
| 00:57:09 | We want to stay out of it
because they question whether we
would be committed to it.
|
| 00:57:13 | Would drag them in and leave
them exposed to a situation
which had been disrupted
through con -- conflict and
violence.
|
| 00:57:23 | >> Really quickly, because
fred's comments reminded me of
concluding a marks -- remarks.
|
| 00:57:33 | That helps us bring it back to
the larger political discussion.
|
| 00:57:38 | Not only are we failing to
manage the world in a way that
will leave our children in a
safer environment.
|
| 00:57:52 | Dudgeon by the faces I am
looking at, you people, we are
leaving a lot of work for you to
do, but we are leaving many less
means to do with it.
|
| 00:58:02 | Not because we are demobilizing
after a war.
|
| 00:58:06 | Even if you accept that
paradigm.
|
| 00:58:10 | The money is going to
entitlement programs.
|
| 00:58:16 | The money you want to read
mobilized to defend yourself
will be in my retirement health-
care accounts.
|
| 00:58:23 | We can either try to do it then,
take away entitlements from
people in a crisis
circumstance, or we can begin
to govern our appetites now.
|
| 00:58:33 | If somebody -- some day we wake
up and the world is remaining a
dangerous place and we have to
do something about it, that
involves using armed force, that
we can then move -- mobilize our
wealth to do that.
|
| 00:58:47 | We are setting ourselves up for
circumstances in the not too far
distant future.
|
| 00:58:53 | That will be much much harder
and it will be historic plea an
unprecedented situation for this
country to be in.
|
| 00:59:01 | >> Let's open up questions.
|
| 00:59:03 | Forgive me, but I do not have a
microphone to hand around.
|
| 00:59:07 | I will repeat your question so
it is audible for the audience.
|
| 00:59:13 | This gentleman over here and
then I saw a hand there.
|
| 00:59:18 | >> You criticize the obama
administration approach pretty
well.
|
| 00:59:27 | What are the answers?
|
| 00:59:28 | What is the answer in somalia
and [indiscernible]
>> the question is that the
criticism of the obama
administration on its actions in
a variety of these in somalia
was persuasive but what is the
right answer?
|
| 00:59:52 | >> I do not have a right answer.
|
| 00:59:56 | There is not a simple right
answer for these various places.
|
| 01:00:00 | I think we need to get beyond a
very by neri view of troops on
the ground and no troops on the
ground in situations here.
|
| 01:00:10 | I think it is in our interest to
find a way to work with local
partners in order to combat
local groups to help them govern
territory -- territory --
territories.
|
| 01:00:28 | It started by a democratic
president who was enthusiastic
about this kind of thing.
|
| 01:00:34 | John f. kennedy.
|
| 01:00:35 | This is one of the things the
special forces was created to
do.
|
| 01:00:42 | This is an advise mission and an
enabled mission.
|
| 01:00:48 | We would probably be in a
somewhat better place.
|
| 01:00:51 | But we do have to face some hard
questions.
|
| 01:00:53 | The questions are, what do you
do where you do not have
partners and where to go up the
escalation ladder and are you
going to be drawn in a war in
every place?
|
| 01:01:06 | The answer is you do not want to
be and you do not have to make a
hard decision in any case about
the risk of going down one path
or the other.
|
| 01:01:15 | It has to be contingent, not
ideological.
|
| 01:01:20 | It is now ideological in the
opposite direction from the bush
years.
|
| 01:01:25 | Now we are saying we will never
be on the ground.
|
| 01:01:29 | You cannot allow yourself and
your brain to the short circuit
did by slippery slope arguments.
|
| 01:01:37 | We always live on a slippery
slope.
|
| 01:01:40 | The question is making the right
decisions.
|
| 01:01:42 | You really cannot make the
desion honestly until you see
the concrete choices in front of
you in each case.
|
| 01:01:51 | >> [Indiscernible]
western hemisphere, but italy
cuba?
|
| 01:02:02 | >> The question is about the
western hemisphere, which I did
not touch on.
|
| 01:02:08 | And the instability from the
drug cartels.
|
| 01:02:12 | Are you capable of talking about
that a little bit?
|
| 01:02:15 | >> Yes.
|
| 01:02:24 | First of all, that has always
been our defense of the
continental or legal united
states.
|
| 01:02:35 | That has been our principal
security interest ever since
before we were a nation.
|
| 01:02:41 | It is a moment in time --
through history, parents have
gone back and forth about
liberal regimes in the area.
|
| 01:02:56 | We have a lot partners with whom
we could be working.
|
| 01:02:59 | We have partnerships with
columbia, which has been a
pretty low level thing.
|
| 01:03:04 | One which the house of
representatives has
traditionally kept very close
tabs on.
|
| 01:03:10 | Is a model, counter insurgency
through partnership.
|
| 01:03:14 | If we had a that model in some
of our middle east engagements,
we would have been much better
off also today.
|
| 01:03:23 | To suggest -- it is possible to
work with the brazilians.
|
| 01:03:31 | They were the leading force in
the un mission in haiti.
|
| 01:03:39 | Some good things have been
happening, even while these
cartel out bridges are
happening.
|
| 01:03:48 | There -- they are a serious
threat to the stability of
mexico and the border.
|
| 01:03:51 | Absolutely, but likewise, it
will take a fairly traditional
approach.
|
| 01:04:01 | >> Part of the problem is at
this table.
|
| 01:04:09 | Latin america, the western
hemisphere does not yet
addressed in washington unless
it is the latest on travis'
health.
|
| 01:04:18 | May be an election in venezuela.
|
| 01:04:22 | Or some fire in brazil.
|
| 01:04:24 | That is what makes the
newspaper.
|
| 01:04:27 | That is part of the problem.
|
| 01:04:28 | It is part of the challenge to
congress.
|
| 01:04:32 | A big part of the answer to
every single question is, you
cannot beat something with
nothing.
|
| 01:04:39 | If you want to beat the
constructs that america must
retreat from the world, it is
the value embraced by the obama
administration, you have got to
beat it with something.
|
| 01:04:52 | That means capitol hill.
|
| 01:04:53 | If it is not, it will not
happen.
|
| 01:04:59 | We are not capable of doing it.
|
| 01:05:02 | That is a historic reality.
|
| 01:05:04 | In the 1990's, when bill clinton
said it is the economy, stupid.
|
| 01:05:14 | Legislated sanctions on ir andn
n how push for sanctions on
cuba, which pushed for exactly
what you are talking about.
|
| 01:05:29 | That pushed for a new
relationship in india.
|
| 01:05:30 | I could go on and on.
|
| 01:05:32 | All the things we take for
granted were not initiatives of
the clinton administration, but
of members of congress here on
capitol hill who changed the
world in a meaningful way.
|
| 01:05:46 | That is still an opportunity if
only we recognize it is
something to care about.
|
| 01:05:51 | You have two formal -- former
capitol hill people here.
|
| 01:05:59 | >> How do we know when we have
one?
|
| 01:06:03 | Counter-terrorism.
|
| 01:06:06 | Is there a metric?
|
| 01:06:09 | Is there anything?
|
| 01:06:12 | >> The question is how do we
know if we have one.
|
| 01:06:15 | >> Do not worry about it.
|
| 01:06:17 | We are in no danger of winning
any time soon.
|
| 01:06:20 | [Laughter]
it is a fair question.
|
| 01:06:28 | What is your metric for success.
|
| 01:06:33 | And how do we know when we can
stop.
|
| 01:06:37 | We are so far away from that
now.
|
| 01:06:39 | We are further away from that
than when this president took
office.
|
| 01:06:44 | The policies he is recommending
will take us further way because
until we can stop measuring the
hairs that are actually governed
by al qaeda affiliates, i
guarantee you the question of
whether we have one or not is
not operative.
|
| 01:06:59 | Right n that measurement is
on the increase, rather than the
decrease.
|
| 01:07:04 | It is a fair question.
|
| 01:07:07 | I think we need to recognize
where we are in history.
|
| 01:07:11 | This is more like 1943.
|
| 01:07:15 | Hopefully, we will stop the
retreat here.
|
| 01:07:17 | At that point, the soviets were
not thinking so much about what
kind of peace they would impose
on germany when they're done.
|
| 01:07:26 | They would think about how they
would recover the ground lost in
their own interests.
|
| 01:07:31 | That is where we are now.
|
| 01:07:33 | We have lost so much ground and
we are about to lose so much
more that that is the conundrum
that faces us right now.
|
| 01:07:39 | >> I think there is an answer.
|
| 01:07:42 | If you look back, we were
winning in iraq after the surge
in 2007.
|
| 01:07:48 | Winning actually is not just a
game in the playground.
|
| 01:07:52 | It is not just a, thank you very
much.
|
| 01:07:55 | We are done here now.
|
| 01:07:58 | Winning requires maintenance.
|
| 01:07:59 | When you choose not to, it is
very easy to go back to losing
again.
|
| 01:08:06 | The implications may not be
obvious until later.
|
| 01:08:09 | I think the president has
written a great deal about what
the implications of having a
force in iraq have meant for the
stability of the country and for
our own national interests.
|
| 01:08:22 | And the national interests of
our allies in the middle east.
|
| 01:08:29 | >> You mentioned a war between
china and japan.
|
| 01:08:34 | What would that look like?
|
| 01:08:36 | At what point with the united
states have to be involved?
|
| 01:08:40 | >> Between japan tried to look
like.
|
| 01:08:46 | >> I did not mean conventional
verse is unconventional.
|
| 01:08:50 | I did not think it would be like
the 1930's.
|
| 01:08:53 | I did not think it would be, in
essence, a full outward.
|
| 01:08:59 | I think what will happen, there
will be an accident.
|
| 01:09:04 | I think you have got the
japanese sending up their
fighter patrols jets.
|
| 01:09:09 | The chinese have responded and
the japanese are talking about
firing warning shots.
|
| 01:09:14 | That would be an act of war to
do that.
|
| 01:09:17 | You have the coast guard's and
the patrol vessels.
|
| 01:09:21 | The vessels of china jousting
with each other, bumping in with
each other.
|
| 01:09:25 | Someone will die.
|
| 01:09:26 | There will be an accident of
some kind.
|
| 01:09:33 | Then it is a question of what
are the rules of engagement each
side has.
|
| 01:09:37 | Japan is a treaty ally of ours.
|
| 01:09:42 | What we do know is the assistant
secretary of state was sent
there last week along with the
head of asia national security
council.
|
| 01:09:57 | To tell the japanese to calm
down and not push too far.
|
| 01:10:01 | When we read that in the paper,
we can be sure the chinese are
reading that, interpreting that
they have more leeway to push on
these things.
|
| 01:10:09 | The conflict can be any type of
conflict, but is it -- it is a
highly militarized small area
right now.
|
| 01:10:17 | If something happens, what do
the japanese do?
|
| 01:10:20 | Do they ask for conversations
?
|
| 01:10:24 | Chinese would certainly regard
that as an escalation.
|
| 01:10:27 | Do they revoke and ask for help
in self-defense?
|
| 01:10:33 | What do we decidewill give
them.
|
| 01:10:38 | We have kept all of our forces
out of the immediate area.
|
| 01:10:42 | The credibility of the alliance
is on the line.
|
| 01:10:44 | We say that a lot but it really
is.
|
| 01:10:47 | The japanese have been tussling
over these islands for several
years now.
|
| 01:10:53 | If we did not back them up at a
time when the japanese military
lives ever -- were being lost,
we lose our forward base in the
pac.
|
| 01:11:10 | >> I was going to ask about
syria.
|
| 01:11:17 | 60,000 People have died.
|
| 01:11:21 | Probably a lot more people have
died.
|
| 01:11:24 | should
intervene or at the very least
--
>> I have to disagree you
suggested in the beginning
serious one of the better
developed countries in the
middle east.
|
| 01:11:44 | Syria has never been one of the
better developed countries in
the middle east.
|
| 01:11:51 | Socialism does not work
anywhere.
|
| 01:11:53 | Least of all -- in a place with
no natural resources.
|
| 01:11:58 | Syria was not doing well at all
prior to the outbreak of this
civil war.
|
| 01:12:05 | The problem is that there is no
good exit option in syria.
|
| 01:12:11 | There is no good outcome here.
|
| 01:12:15 | This is the argument that
underpins everything we have
been trying to say.
|
| 01:12:19 | In the beginning, of any
problem, it is always easier to
solve it.
|
| 01:12:25 | May not come out optimally.
|
| 01:12:28 | You may not get an a or b answer
or even a see answer.
|
| 01:12:33 | Now, all you can get our f
answers.
|
| 01:12:39 | The decision of the united
states to not involve itself,
and I mean the obama
administration, not to involve
itself in any way, has done
exactly what we bemoaned, what
fred talked about in libya.
|
| 01:12:55 | It has subcontracted policy to
countries who do not have the
same tastes that we do.
|
| 01:13:06 | When we look at the blow back
from libya and you ask yourself,
why is it the people with whom
we are now defending -- against
whom we are now defending
ourselves in benghazi, are such
islamic extremists?
|
| 01:13:21 | The answer is because those who
were like-minded to us and chose
to act in a way that is --
we are lucky because of our
limited involvement that we have
a government there come a
moderate government of people
that try to pull an ambassador
being murdered out of the
situation rather than push him
into one.
|
| 01:13:46 | What we will see in syria is
that opportunist islamic
extremist groups and other local
groups have come to the
forefront and they are well on.
|
| 01:14:00 | The rebellion that began in part
secular and had no related --
religious basis, that was
brought together by universal
opposition is now infiltrated by
all sorts of al qaeda and
related groups.
|
| 01:14:19 | When assad falls, what will be
left is a gigantic, well armed,
feuding mess.
|
| 01:14:31 | On the border of iraq.
|
| 01:14:35 | Turkey, jordan, lebanon, and
israel.
|
| 01:14:40 | It is as if we live in a fantasy
world to think the implications
of the conflict there have
absolutely no meaning for our
own national security.
|
| 01:14:51 | It is a disaster.
|
| 01:14:52 | What we can do now is try to
contain the disaster.
|
| 01:14:58 | And hasten the movement out and
insure that whoever is in charge
actually is a group that
respects and values the kind of
values we have, rather than the
kind of values others have.
|
| 01:15:18 | >> Looked, this is also a case
where we are paying the price
for having persuaded ourselves
that I wrap was a country
located somewhere on the moon.
|
| 01:15:28 | And it does not actually share
common borders with any place on
the earth that is of any
significance to us.
|
| 01:15:36 | Because we adopted that
approach and because the
administration decided they were
our best friend and the guy we
needed to back at all costs, the
result is that iraq has been
feeding the situation in syria
in two ways.
|
| 01:15:52 | One is they have been traveling
through iraq as the murder
people.
|
| 01:16:00 | And the al qaeda organization
that was supported from the
outset by the logistics base and
so forth that a sod had allowed
to exist in syria, reversed
polarity, and has been
radicalizing the movement.
|
| 01:16:17 | Now what we are seeing is the
continued spillover in iraq of
this violence, but also of the
real strengthening of the al
qaeda franchise.
|
| 01:16:28 | It is time to recognize iraq and
syria share a common border.
|
| 01:16:33 | The tribes that cross the border
do actually talk to each other.
|
| 01:16:37 | The highways that go between the
two countries carry terrorists
in both directions.
|
| 01:16:42 | What we are now seeing is a
problem that will begin to
expand exponentially as the al
qaeda groups in both countries
draw strength from the fact they
are gaining in both countries
and being supported by others in
both countries.
|
| 01:16:59 | We are providing no guidance,
assistants, or support, playing
no role whatsoever.
|
| 01:17:06 | >> You have to open up the
aperture a bit more.
|
| 01:17:11 | This war is being conducted in a
regional context, defined by the
u.s. withdrawal.
|
| 01:17:17 | was in a very
strong position.
|
| 01:17:23 | Nobody liked us but they do not
like us now our actual power in
the region was at a high water
mark.
|
| 01:17:37 | Now there are many situations
taking it pass syria.
|
| 01:17:45 | The other involvement we did
pursue is not a recommendation.
|
| 01:17:51 | I am not suressad regime
-- the russians and chinese will
defend them internationally.
|
| 01:18:05 | At some point, that will go up,
not down.
|
| 01:18:11 | The u.s. is increasingly gone.
|
| 01:18:14 | They will be contending for
power.
|
| 01:18:20 | Great power and sponsorship from
russia and china.
|
| 01:18:25 | The suny part of the region,
which will maintain some sort of
alliance, but not one that we
will be able to direct as we
have up until 2008, this could
turn into something really ugly
very rapidly.
|
| 01:18:45 | >> 80,000 People dead is not
ugly.
|
| 01:18:51 | >> [Indiscernible]
>> which of our foreign policies
toward egypt -- this is another
area where congress really has a
role to play.
|
| 01:19:07 | Administration has decided the
muslim brotherhood president of
egypt is the guy in the seat.
|
| 01:19:17 | It is completely indifferent to
what the program should look
like and what the desired
outcome in egypt should be.
|
| 01:19:25 | The only thing they appear to be
interested in, is the
continuation of the israeli-
egyptian -- obviously a great
interest, but not the only thing
that should and made us when we
talk about the worst country in
the middle east.
|
| 01:19:46 | When I saw we were delivering
fighter jets to the military, i
asked myself what message this
sends.
|
| 01:19:55 | The real -- the rule should be
not that foreign aid is bad or
good and not that military
assistance is quarterback --
good or bad.
|
| 01:20:05 | It is the tax payer dollars.
|
| 01:20:07 | It is used to pay tax dollar
pare interest.
|
| 01:20:14 | We should take it down to zero
and build it anew.
|
| 01:20:18 | Does that mean we should give
everybody the same as before?
|
| 01:20:21 | Maybe it does.
|
| 01:20:22 | Does it mean we should give them
zero?
|
| 01:20:26 | Could be.
|
| 01:20:27 | Does it mean we should give them
more?
|
| 01:20:29 | Also a possibility.
|
| 01:20:30 | Autopilot is unconscionable.
|
| 01:20:34 | That is the problem we have.
|
| 01:20:37 | We are on autopilot.
|
| 01:20:38 | I am not talking about this
blank contract in whatever
country we are building.
|
| 01:20:45 | There are things that are going
on and pipelines in our foreign
aid.
|
| 01:20:48 | The inch -- the issue is the
message we send.
|
| 01:20:52 | We become hysterically.
|
| 01:20:55 | Put you killed a christian and
all of our aid must end.
|
| 01:20:58 | Do not do it based on that.
|
| 01:21:00 | That is unacceptable.
|
| 01:21:01 | This should be based on a whole
array of questions.
|
| 01:21:05 | Treatment of minorities, treat
-- religious rights, political
rights, economic rights.
|
| 01:21:11 | All of those things are known
factors and yet it seems
everybody has something better
to do than to sit down and have
aggressive hearings on egypt,
take it down to nothing and
built it crashed.
|
| 01:21:27 | -- Fresh.
|
| 01:21:30 | .
|
| 01:21:33 | >> I am agreeing entirely with
that.
|
| 01:21:37 | On the hill, sometimes, too
much, we get caught up on the
focus of our values, which is
important.
|
| 01:21:45 | But why do we care, at the end
of the day, about the welfare of
individual the egyptians or
about how minorities are treated
or about these other things?
|
| 01:21:56 | We care because it speaks
directly to the ability of the
state to govern in peace and
control its territory and people
and deny that territory and
popular support to our enemy.
|
| 01:22:09 | That is why we do foreign aid
these days.
|
| 01:22:12 | Part of the problem we have in
that discussion is that when it
was crafted a originally, it was
seen as a form of diplomacy.
|
| 01:22:22 | In the overall context of the
war, where we were going to show
what good guys we were.
|
| 01:22:30 | It has become something else.
|
| 01:22:32 | To become something beyond that.
|
| 01:22:34 | We have a fundantal interest
in helping states around the
world threatened by the
infection of al qaeda.
|
| 01:22:42 | We have a fundamental interest
in helping the states in those
areas the other -- govern
effectively and stately --
stable league.
|
| 01:22:53 | Happily, our values are
generally embraced.
|
| 01:22:56 | That kind of government requires
not using f-16s against your
people, not machine gunning them
to death.
|
| 01:23:04 | , Allowing elections to proceed
in an open and honest way.
|
| 01:23:10 | We do not think everyone should
be like us.
|
| 01:23:13 | This is a question of whether
you want states to be stable in
the world or whether you want
states to be a chaotic hotbed.
|
| 01:23:26 | >> Yes?
|
| 01:23:31 | >> [Indiscernible]
how those two things may
relate, looking at state based
collecting an analysis as
opposed to looking at so much
more.
|
| 01:23:50 | >> Repeat the question?
|
| 01:23:52 | >> The question is about
intelligence and the pivot and
will it be more state-based
rather than looking at non-state
actors.
|
| 01:24:05 | I have not heard that much about
it.
|
| 01:24:07 | In general, we are state based
now.
|
| 01:24:10 | The question is, are we state
based enough.
|
| 01:24:16 | We have got china, north korea,
the strategic water lanes, you
have got the south and east
china sea.
|
| 01:24:29 | And you get into territory.
|
| 01:24:31 | Qualm.
|
| 01:24:33 | In recent years, there has been
interest in expanding that out.
|
| 01:24:37 | We have very few assets.
|
| 01:24:39 | That is really about it, diego.
|
| 01:24:44 | We are using a lot of the means
we need out there, such as
autonomous vehicles to do high-
level surveillance, mid-level
surveillance, we do not have
fire scouts and other things
there in the numbers we need.
|
| 01:24:59 | We have not pushed our allies to
build them.
|
| 01:25:01 | That is one thing we should be
doing.
|
| 01:25:04 | Japan and south korea and
others, pushing them to build up
this capability and share it
among themselves.
|
| 01:25:15 | Whether or not it is true, but
it certainly seems to be at
least a viable urban legend,
when we find out about a new
soviet
>> russia.
|
| 01:25:39 | >> As opposed to a traditional
process, you have to raise the
question of whether we are
seeing these types of things we
need to see.
|
| 01:25:47 | What type of net risky have on
the ground, how we are working
with our allies who are also
very concerned.
|
| 01:25:56 | The best analogy is most of our
allies are concerned with their
front yard.
|
| 01:26:02 | And their front door.
|
| 01:26:04 | When they get out to the street
and the intersection, that is
.
|
| 01:26:10 | They are not concerned about
controlling the intersection in
the street.
|
| 01:26:14 | That is a problem for us because
we have presumptions that a lot
of the reasons we have, the
treaty with japan, we are not
worried about an amphibious
invasion of japan today.
|
| 01:26:27 | We want it to take a more active
role in the intersection.
|
| 01:26:30 | It is hard to drag them there.
|
| 01:26:33 | Those are the things we need to
focus on.
|
| 01:26:36 | Intelligence collection goes
towards a community of interest.
|
| 01:26:40 | >> I will wrap things up.
|
| 01:26:42 | But we think my colleague for
being here and all of you.
|
| 01:26:45 | And the rest of our state of
union policy series.
|
| 01:26:54 | Objection.
|
| 01:31:17 | Mrs.
|
| 01:31:19 | Madam president, I rise today on
behalf of t millions of
americans who are saying enough
is enough.
|
| 01:31:29 | They've seen too much senseless
deadly gun violence and are
demanding commonsense solutions
out of congress.
|
| 01:31:38 | One solution that I've been
focused on for a long time is
ending gun trafficking.
|
| 01:31:44 | This is critically important to
public safety issues, where i
believe members of both sides of
the aisle can come together and
agree.
|
| 01:31:53 | We can and should agree that
it's time to crack down on the
black market of illegal guns
that criminals rely upon to
obtain weapons that are later
used in violent crimes.
|
| 01:32:06 | Almost one month ago, the nypd
suffered one of the bloodiest
nights in recent history when
three officers suffered gunshot
wounds in two separate crimes
within an hour apart.
|
| 01:32:18 | According to the news reports,
one of the handguns recovered
from the scene was imported by
traffickers from philadelphia.
|
| 01:32:24 | Another one came from north
carolina.
|
| 01:32:29 | Thankfully, these heroes are on
their way towards recover
just one year ago, new york
police officer peter fegogski,
the father of four beautiful
girls, was tragically killed on
the beat with an illegal weapon
purchased in the black market in
virginia.
|
| 01:32:49 | I will never forget the faces of
slain 17-year-old honor student
niasha priard's parents, who i
met justeeks after being sworn
in to the senate.
|
| 01:33:03 | Niasha was also killed by an
illegal gun one terrible night
when she was doing nothing more
than enjoying an evening with
friends.
|
| 01:33:10 | Accordingo new york city's
mayor's office, 85% of the guns
used in crimes in new york city
come from out of state and 90%
of those guns are brought
through the illegal black market
run by traickers.
|
| 01:33:24 | The sad fact is that more than
30 people die every single day
due to gun violence.
|
| 01:33:31 | These senseless killings must
stop.
|
| 01:33:35 | We have an obligation to act and
prevent tomorrow's senseless
deaths by ensuring that guns
stay out of the hands of
criminals and the dangerously
mentally ill and to strengthen
our laws so that law enforcement
have the ability to go after the
gun runners and take down these
illegal markets.
|
| 01:33:55 | The truth is that supporting the
second amendment and reducing
gun violence are compatible and
consistent.
|
| 01:34:04 | Responsible gun owners
vehemently oppose any kind of
gun vioe, the kind of gun
violence that struck in newtown,
aurora, oak creek, and the
thousands of families across
america every single year who
suffer.
|
| 01:34:18 | We should be able to find
reasonable and commonsense
reforms that can preserve our
rights but also protect our
families.
|
| 01:34:28 | Because keeping our children
safe from the scourge of gun
violence is not a democratic or
republican principle.
|
| 01:34:36 | It's not pro-gun or antigun.
|
| 01:34:39 | This is an issue that all
americans can support.
|
| 01:34:46 | There's no political ideology
that finds this cruel loss of
life acceptable.
|
| 01:34:51 | I was incredibly pleased to see
president obama include as part
of his comprehensive plan to
prevent gun violence a bill that
I first introduced in 2009 with
mayor bloomberg and commissioner
kelly called "the gun
trafficking prevention act,"
which would be the first federal
law to define gun trafficking as
a federal crime and event
scofers illegal guns from
being -- scores of illegal guns
from being moved into the hands
of criminals.
|
| 01:35:18 | We have thousands of laws but
effectively none of them are
directly focused on pventing
someone from driving from one
state to another state with a
load of guns in the back of a
truck that they can sell
directly to criminals.
|
| 01:35:35 | It's shocking to me as a mother.
|
| 01:35:37 | It's shocking to me as a
lawmaker.
|
| 01:35:40 | But this is something we can
actually fix.
|
| 01:35:42 | Over the past three years, more
than 33,000 guns used in violent
crimes showed telltale signs of
black market trafficking.
|
| 01:35:53 | 420,000 Firearms
were stolen and thousands of
guns with obliterated serial
numbers were uncovered by law
enforcement.
|
| 01:36:03 | So while law enforcement is
working overtime to track down
illegal guns and apprehend those
who traffic these weapons,
current law restricts their
ability to investigate and
prosecute these crimes.
|
| 01:36:15 | We can all agree this simply
makes no sense and leaves all of
our communities vulnerable.
|
| 01:36:23 | I am very proud to have worked
with my colleague and frid,
senator mark kirk, to introduce
a bipartisan bill today, senate
bill 179.
|
| 01:36:35 | This bill takes on the problem
of gun trafficking head on.
|
| 01:36:43 | Our bipartisan bill would
empower local, sta and federal
law enforcement to investigate
and prosecute gun traffickers,
straw purchasers and their
entire criminal networks.
|
| 01:36:53 | Our bill does nothing to affect
the constitutionally protected
rights of responsible
law-abiding gun owners.
|
| 01:37:00 | By cracking down on illegal
trafficking and their vast
criminal networks, we can stop
the flow of these illegal guns
that are coming into our city
neighborhoods and reduce the gun
violence.
|
| 01:37:16 | Law enforcement officials across
the country he said that they
need this legislation to be able
to fight crime.
|
| 01:37:22 | I urge my colleagues to support
this bill, and I urge passage of
this commonsense nonpartisan,
bipartisan piece of legislation.
|
| 01:37:32 | I would also like to now smit
a statement for the record that
senator mark kirk has authored.
|
| 01:37:40 | I'd like to appear following my
statement.
|
| 01:37:46 | The presiding officer:
.
|
| 03:13:11 | .
|
| 03:13:11 | .
|
| 03:13:11 | .
|
| 03:26:59 | We've got to get real with what
works and does not.
|
| 03:27:01 | My problem with background
checks is that you are never
going to get criminals to go
through universal background
checks.
|
| 03:27:07 | And of the law-abiding people,
you will create an enormous
federal theocracy --
bureaucracy, unfunded, and
people have to pay the fees, pay
the taxes.
|
| 03:27:20 | We do not even prosecute anybody
right now that goes through the
system we have.
|
| 03:27:24 | We will make all of those law-
abiding people go through the
system and then we will not
prosecute any of the bad guys if
they do catch one.
|
| 03:27:37 | None of it makes any sense in
the real world.
|
| 03:27:39 | We have 80,000 police families
in the nra.
|
| 03:27:41 | And we care about police safety.
|
| 03:27:42 | We want what works.
|
| 03:27:50 | >> I'm trying to be fair to
everybody here.
|
| 03:27:52 | Certainly, you have more chances
to speak.
|
| 03:27:54 | >> That is the point.
|
| 03:27:55 | The criminals will not go to
purchase the guns because
there'll be a background check.
|
| 03:28:11 | It will stop them from original
purchase.
|
| 03:28:13 | You missed that point
completely.
|
| 03:28:14 | It is basic.
|
| 03:28:15 | [Applause]
>> there will be order.
|
| 03:28:16 | [Gavel]
there will be order in the
committee room.
|
| 03:28:26 | >> I'm going to give you a
chance.
|
| 03:28:28 | But let me say at the outset,
captain kelly, thank you.
|
| 03:28:39 | Thank you for bringing that
wonderful, brave wife of yours
today to remind us what victims
suffer from buy and --
from gun violence.
|
| 03:28:46 | What a heroic figure she is and
what a pillar you are to stand
by her during her
rehabilitation.
|
| 03:28:51 | We are so proud of her and of
view.
|
| 03:28:54 | And I say with some regret,
there should have been a hearing
just like this right after your
wife, one of our own, a member
of congress was shot point-blank
in the face at a town meeting in
tucson, arizona.
|
| 03:29:43 | I am sorry it has taken two
years to convene this hearing,
to
bring us to our senses and open
this conversation.
|
| 03:29:51 | I hope you will extend to her
our best wishes, love, and
support for what she is doing
today and what she has meant to
all of us for this long period
of time.
|
| 03:29:59 | I also want to say a word about
an incident.
|
| 03:30:02 | There was a young lady from
chicago, illinois, 15 years old.
|
| 03:30:06 | She attended a university prep
school in chicago, an honor
student, and she marched in the
inaugural parade last week.
|
| 03:30:12 | I can point to one gun store,
one store in illinois that
accounts for more than 20% of
the crimes in chicago.
|
| 03:30:17 | Straw purchasers buy the gun
there and they end up in the
hands of criminals in the city
of chicago.
|
| 03:30:23 | We have to put an end to this.
|
| 03:31:03 | I'm going to ask a question to
the panelists.
|
| 03:31:09 | lapierre, I ran into some of
your members in illinois and
they tell me, you do not get the
second amendment.
|
| 03:31:21 | It is not just about hunting.
|
| 03:31:22 | It is not just about sports.
|
| 03:31:24 | It is not just about shooting
targets.
|
| 03:31:26 | It is not just about defending
ourselves from criminals, as ms.
|
| 03:31:30 | Trotter testified.
|
| 03:31:31 | We need the ability to protect
ourselves from our governments.
|
| 03:32:19 | From our government, from the
police, if they knock on our
doors and we need to fight back.
|
| 03:32:26 | Do you agree with that point of
view?
|
| 03:32:35 | >> If you look at what our
founding fathers put down there,
they had lived under the tyranny
of king george and wanted to
make sure these free people in
this new country would never be
subjugated again and live under
tyranny.
|
| 03:32:56 | I also think that what people
all over the country fear today
is being abandoned by their
government, if a tornado hits,
if a hurricane hits, if a riot
occurs.
|
| 03:33:07 | Then they will be out there
alone.
|
| 03:33:10 | The only way they will protect
themselves in the cold and dark,
when they are vulnerable, is
with a fire arm.
|
| 03:33:15 | That indicates how relevant and
essential the second amendment
is in today's society to
fundamental human survival.
|
| 03:33:23 | >> Chief johnson, you have heard
it.
|
| 03:33:30 | Some believe that citizens have
to have the firepower to fight
back against you.
|
| 03:33:34 | Against the government.
|
| 03:33:35 | How do you conduct your business
in enforcing the law, not
knowing what is behind that
door?
|
| 03:33:41 | >> I find it to be very scary,
creepy, simply just not based on
logic.
|
| 03:33:50 | Certainly, law enforcement
across the nation is well
prepared to deal with any
natural or man-made disaster
that would occur.
|
| 03:34:04 | Frankly, -- I cannot relate to
that kind of thinking.
|
| 03:34:06 | >> I cannot either.
|
| 03:34:07 | And I cannot think about the
need of that man in colorado
having 100 cartridges.
|
| 03:34:20 | Professor koppel, do you think
that it is necessary for
hunting, sports, target
practice, even self defense?
|
| 03:34:32 | >> It would be not legal for
hunting in most states where
there are limits on how many
rounds you can have in a
magazine.
|
| 03:34:48 | As I think you have recognized,
the second amendment is not
primarily about hunting.
|
| 03:34:53 | What I have been talking about
is what the supreme court said
in the district of columbia
versus heller, which is the
second amendment, the firearms
and their accessories which are
commonly owned by law-abiding
people for legitimate purposes.
|
| 03:35:03 | I am talking about what police
officers carry, what citizens
carry, semi-automatic handguns.
|
| 03:35:06 | >> But those are police
officers.
|
| 03:35:09 | >> They are not military,
they're not coming to attack
people, they are protecting
people.
|
| 03:35:21 | Citizens protect themselves the
same way the police officers do.
|
| 03:35:24 | >> If you can rationalize a 100-
round drum that someone can
strap onto a semi-automatic
weapon, as did in aurora,
colorado, killing dozens of
people there, saving only
because it jammed, then you
ought to object to the laws that
have been on the books for years
about machine guns.
|
| 03:35:43 | Why are they not allowed under
the second amendment?
|
| 03:35:48 | >> According to heller, they are
not commonly used by law-abiding
citizens for legitimate
purposes.
|
| 03:35:53 | >> And 100 magazines are?
|
| 03:36:02 | >> Thank goodness he had a piece
of junk like that instead of
something better where he could
kill more people.
|
| 03:36:06 | >> That is what is all about?
|
| 03:36:07 | >> It is about saving lives with
ordinary magazines.
|
| 03:36:12 | 100 Magazines are not used by
police officers or hunters.
|
| 03:36:19 | What you are talking about
banning is normal magazines.
|
| 03:36:30 | >> The shooter in tucson showed
up with two 33-round magazines,
one of which was in his 9
millimeter.
|
| 03:36:35 | He unloaded the contents of that
magazine in 15 seconds.
|
| 03:36:37 | Very quickly.
|
| 03:36:40 | The first bullet went into
gabby's head.
|
| 03:36:44 | Bullet #13 went into a nine-year
old girl named christina taylor
green.
|
| 03:36:55 | She deserved a full life
committed to enhancing those
ideas.
|
| 03:37:09 | If he had a 10-round magazine --
let me back up.
|
| 03:37:11 | When he tried to reload one 33-
round magazine with another, he
dropped it.
|
| 03:37:14 | A woman named patricia grabbed
it, and it gave bystanders time
to tackle him.
|
| 03:37:17 | I contend, if that same thing
happened when he was trying to
reload one 10-round magazine
with another, meaning he did not
have access to a high-capacity
magazine, and the same thing
happened, christina taylor green
would be alive today.
|
| 03:37:37 | I am certainly willing to give
up my right on a high-capacity
magazine to bring that young
woman back, that young girl.
|
| 03:37:42 | Let me continue with what
happened that day.
|
| 03:37:45 | In that 15 seconds -- actually,
in the first shot, one man ran
out of walgreen's, a man with a
gun, with the intent to do the
right thing, an armed citizen.
|
| 03:37:57 | He admits he came within about a
half second of shooting the man
who tackled jared loughner,
nearly killing him.
|
| 03:38:10 | We almost had this horrific mass
murder followed up by an
horrific accident.
|
| 03:38:21 | The horrific mass murder because
of the high-capacity magazine
and the horrific accident
because of the armed person
there who, with good intentions,
wanted to end the something that
was going really bad.
|
| 03:38:39 | >> Senator graham.
|
| 03:38:40 | >> Thank you, mr. chairman.
|
| 03:38:43 | I think I am speaking for a lot
of people when we say we are
heartbroken when a family member
is taken through an act of gun
violence, whether it be a child
or anyone else, but particularly
children.
|
| 03:38:54 | That is a heartbreaking episode
in society.
|
| 03:38:58 | I think most people would
appreciate the fact that there
are thousands, if not millions
of americans, that save their
families from home invasions or
violent assault because they had
a gun to protect themselves.
|
| 03:39:22 | Most of us are glad it ended
well for you.
|
| 03:39:26 | Those are the two bookends.
|
| 03:39:27 | You mentioned, captain kelly,
and I appreciate you being here,
appreciate your comments about
you and your wife being
reasonable people.
|
| 03:39:33 | I do not doubt that one bit.
|
| 03:39:41 | The question is, am I an
unreasonable american if i
oppose this bill?
|
| 03:39:45 | Am I an unreasonable american to
believe the constitution says
guns commonly used by the
population for legitimate
purposes?
|
| 03:39:50 | I do not want to own a gun to
attack my government.
|
| 03:39:52 | That is not what I think a
legitimate purpose is.
|
| 03:39:54 | Let's talk about a real world
incident that happened in
loganville, georgia in january
2012.
|
| 03:40:08 | One bullet in the hands of a
mentally ill person or a
convicted felon is one too many.
|
| 03:40:18 | Six bullets in the hands of a
mother protecting her twin 9
year-olds may not be enough.
|
| 03:40:21 | So I have a chart here.
|
| 03:40:30 | At the top is the 38 revolver.
|
| 03:40:31 | On the right is a 9 millimeter
pistol.
|
| 03:40:34 | That holds 15 rounds.
|
| 03:40:37 | Does everyone on the panel agree
that a convicted felon should
not have either one of those
guns?
|
| 03:40:47 | Does everybody agree that a
mentally unstable person should
not have either one of those
pistols?
|
| 03:40:51 | Ok, common ground there.
|
| 03:40:52 | Put yourself in the shoes of the
mother.
|
| 03:40:56 | A guy broke into the home, she
ran upstairs, hid in the closet,
she got on the phone with
police, and she was talking with
her husband in real time.
|
| 03:41:09 | The intruder broke into the
home, had a crowbar, and found
them in a closet.
|
| 03:41:18 | They were confronted face-to-
face.
|
| 03:41:20 | According to reports, her
husband said shoot.
|
| 03:41:23 | She emptied the gun, six shot
revolver.
|
| 03:41:26 | The guy was hit five of the six
times.
|
| 03:41:29 | He was able to still get up and
drive away.
|
| 03:41:32 | My question is, put your family
members in that situation.
|
| 03:41:41 | Would I be a reasonable american
to what my family to have the
15-round magazine and a semi-
automatic weapon to make sure,
if there are two intruders, she
does not run out of bullets?
|
| 03:41:55 | And I am on reasonable person
for saying in that situation the
15-round magazine makes sense?
|
| 03:42:05 | Well, I will say that I do not
believe I am.
|
| 03:42:07 | I will give you an example of
where a 15-round magazine could
make the difference between
protecting a family if there is
more than one attacker.
|
| 03:42:21 | kelly,
and the situation you described,
I do not want that person to
have one goal of oregon.
|
| 03:42:25 | The point of regulating
magazines is to interrupt the
shooter.
|
| 03:42:40 | I guess what I am saying is we
live in a role where there are 4
million high-capacity magazines
out there or more.
|
| 03:42:44 | The best way to interrupt the
shooter, if they come to a
school house, is not to deny the
moment an atlanta and the
ability to have more than 10
rounds, but to have somebody
like you, chief johnson, meet
them when they come to the door.
|
| 03:43:03 | That is the best way to do it.
|
| 03:43:04 | My good friend joe biden, who i
have spirited conversations
about a lot of things, was
talking to somebody in
california who mentioned the
fact, what if there is an
earthquake out here and there is
a lawless situation?
|
| 03:43:12 | In 1992, you had the riots in
los angeles.
|
| 03:43:21 | You could find yourself in a
lawless environment in this
country.
|
| 03:43:31 | The story was about a place
called koreatown.
|
| 03:43:33 | There are marauding gangs going
through the area burning stores,
looting and robbing.
|
| 03:43:39 | The vice-president said in
response to me, he said, no, you
would be better off with a 12
gauge shotgun.
|
| 03:43:52 | That is his opinion, and i
respect it.
|
| 03:43:54 | I have an ar-15 at home and i
have not hurt anybody and I do
not intend to, but I would be
better off protecting my family
if there was law-and-order
breakdown in my neighborhood.
|
| 03:44:07 | I do not think that makes me an
unreasonable person.
|
| 03:44:13 | trotter when you say you
speak on behalf of millions of
women out there who believe an
ar-15 makes them safer, there
were a lot of giggles in the
room, and that explains the
dilemma.
|
| 03:44:23 | The people who were giggling
were saying to you, that is
crazy.
|
| 03:44:26 | Nobody I know thinks that way.
|
| 03:44:30 | Which reminds me of the harvard
professor who said I cannot
believe mcgovern lost.
|
| 03:44:34 | Everyone I knew voted for him.
|
| 03:44:37 | I bet there are people on our
side that cannot believe obama
won because everyone they know
voted against him.
|
| 03:44:46 | The point is, we have different
perspectives on this.
|
| 03:44:48 | The reason I will oppose the
legislation, chief johnston, is
because I respect what you do as
a law-enforcement officer.
|
| 03:45:00 | Has your budget been cut?
|
| 03:45:01 | >> Yes.
|
| 03:45:01 | >> Will it be cut in the future?
|
| 03:45:03 | >> I am optimistic that it is
not.
|
| 03:45:09 | >> Because of the fiscal state
of affairs we have, there will
be less police officers, not
more, over the next decade.
|
| 03:45:14 | Response time will be more, not
less.
|
| 03:45:20 | kelly, I really do want
to get guns out of the hands of
the wrong people.
|
| 03:45:35 | I honest to god believe that if
we arbitrarily say nobody in
this country can own a 10-round
magazine in the future, there
could be a situation where a
mother runs out of bullets
because of something we do here.
|
| 03:45:50 | I cannot prevent every bad
outcome, but I do know and
believe in the bottom of my
heart that I am not an
unreasonable person by saying
that in some circumstances the
15-round makes sense and in
other situations the ar-15 makes
sense.
|
| 03:46:04 | This is why we have these
hearings.
|
| 03:46:20 | I really do appreciate the fact
that we have these hearings.
|
| 03:46:28 | Professor kopel, some people on
our side say that it is
unconstitutional to put a limit
on magazine size.
|
| 03:46:43 | Do you agree with that?
|
| 03:46:44 | >> I think if we follow senator
schumer's approach and follow
the supreme court decision, what
that tells you is the core of
the second amendment is the
firearms and accessories that
are commonly owned by law-
abiding people for legitimate
purposes.
|
| 03:47:01 | >> Is it constitutional to say
10 vs 15?
|
| 03:47:03 | >> 10 Is plainly
unconstitutional.
|
| 03:47:07 | Magazines of up to 19 are common
|
