| 00:00:02 | Now time for "the last word with
"
>> good evening, rachel.
|
| 00:00:06 | Thank you.
|
| 00:00:09 | >> Sure.
|
| 00:00:09 | >> Remember when president bush
and the congress allowed the
assault weapons ban to expire in
2004?
|
| 00:00:15 | No?
|
| 00:00:17 | Well, no one put up much of a
fight, but if congress cared as
much about controlling bullets
as it cares about controlling
tax rates and it had extended
the assault weapons ban, jared
loughner would have needed to
reload after firing half as many
bullets as he did.
|
| 00:00:34 | Half.
|
| 00:00:35 | Imagine the amount of grief that
could have been saved if 15 of
those bullets were never fired.
|
| 00:00:42 | When the investigation reveals
the exact order of the 31 shots
fired, we'll be able to do the
grim accounting and tell you
exactly, exactly who would be
alive today if the republican
house, the republican senate and
the republican president had the
basic human decency to do the
right thing in 2004.
|
| 00:01:08 | >> I think we are at a turning
point in american political
culture.
|
| 00:01:13 | >> It's raised questions, too,
about gun control laws in this
country.
|
| 00:01:15 | >> There's no reason why anybody
needs more than ten round per
pistol.
|
| 00:01:20 | >> Three days after the tucson
massacre, attention finally
turns to guns.
|
| 00:01:26 | >> What happened was not because
of the guns.
|
| 00:01:28 | This was about hate.
|
| 00:01:30 | >> For some voters in some
districts, the gun issue drives
their vote more than anything
else.
|
| 00:01:36 | >> The gun lobby's so completely
dominates the debate.
|
| 00:01:40 | >> The most effective lobby in
the last 20 years is the nra.
|
| 00:01:44 | >> Too many guns, too many
bullets.
|
| 00:01:47 | >> At least 31 rounds before
emptying the magazine.
|
| 00:01:51 | >> He was just standing there
just shooting them one right
after the other.
|
| 00:01:55 | >> And several members of
congress are now drafting
legislation.
|
| 00:01:58 | >> They're trying to get rid of
those clips and make it so you
can only have 15.
|
| 00:02:01 | >> Why don't we have reasonable
gun control laws in this
country?
|
| 00:02:04 | >> And too easy for very sick
people to buy weapons capable of
shooting dozens in a matter of
seconds.
|
| 00:02:11 | >> Breaking news about too far
more grim --
>> jared loughner.
|
| 00:02:14 | >> The fourth note had been
found.
|
| 00:02:17 | >> Crazy people shouldn't get
any kind of gun.
|
| 00:02:19 | >> And what is congress doing?
|
| 00:02:21 | >> Won't it seem as if some in
are asking for gun control
for them but no gun control for
you.
|
| 00:02:28 | >> The possibility of stepped-up
security measures.
|
| 00:02:30 | >> I'll be interested in the
republican-led congress on the
house side when it comes to
mental health funds.
|
| 00:02:37 | >> But the memorial to the
victims.
|
| 00:02:39 | >> The community will hold its
first mass tonight.
|
| 00:02:42 | >> The president coming here i
think means a lot to many
members of this community.
|
| 00:02:46 | >> There are, of course, other
victims here recovering, and, of
course, the congresswoman is
still in critical condition.
|
| 00:02:52 | >> She gave a thumbs up for her
doctors and reached for her
breathing tune.
|
| 00:02:57 | >> For the president to go to
arizona and focus not
necessarily on guns or mental
health but the empty seat in
that classroom.
|
| 00:03:09 | The empty chair at breakfast.
|
| 00:03:12 | That has impact.
|
| 00:03:14 | >> Good evening from los
angeles.
|
| 00:03:16 | Tonight congresswoman gabriel
giffords remains in critical
condition but is now able to
breathe on her own.
|
| 00:03:23 | She's responding to simple
commands and the doctor who
performed her surgery put the
good news this way.
|
| 00:03:30 | She, quote, has no right to look
this good and she does.
|
| 00:03:35 | We've also just gotten the first
pictures of the congresswoman
inside the hospital.
|
| 00:03:41 | Her family releasing these two
photos.
|
| 00:03:45 | This one of her husband sitting
at her bedside.
|
| 00:03:49 | And another one, a picture of
him holding her hand.
|
| 00:03:54 | But tonight there are more
details about the accused
assassin, jared loughner and his
parents who issued this
statement this afternoon.
|
| 00:04:03 | This is a very difficult time
for us.
|
| 00:04:05 | We ask the media to respect our
privacy.
|
| 00:04:07 | There are no words that can
possibly express how we feel.
|
| 00:04:09 | We wish that there were, so we
could make you feel better.
|
| 00:04:13 | We don't understand why this
happened.
|
| 00:04:15 | It may not make any difference,
but we wish that we could change
the heinous events of saturday.
|
| 00:04:21 | We care very deeply about the
victims and their families.
|
| 00:04:23 | We are so very sorry for their
loss.
|
| 00:04:26 | Thank you.
|
| 00:04:28 | Tonight the associated press is
reporting on what has been found
in the loughner home including a
"
investigators believe the
handwritten message was a
reference to congresswoman
giffords.
|
| 00:04:41 | It was found in a safe alongside
other notes.
|
| 00:04:44 | "
another said, "my
"
and included the name giffords.
|
| 00:04:52 | The associated press is also
reporting that on the morning of
the shooting, jared loughner's
father saw him take a black bag
out of the car trunk and, when
he approached his 22-year-old
son, he mumbled something and
took off running.
|
| 00:05:09 | The associated press quoting
authorities says the father got
in his truck and chased his son
as his son ran away.
|
| 00:05:16 | Joining me now, a neighbor of
the loughner family, gloria
waddill.
|
| 00:05:20 | Did you see any of that activity
saturday morning that I just
described, the father chasing
the son?
|
| 00:05:26 | >> No, I did not see that.
|
| 00:05:27 | Nothing like that at all.
|
| 00:05:34 | >> But in living nearby, you did
have some strange experiences
with jared, didn't you?
|
| 00:05:41 | Could you tell us about those.
|
| 00:05:42 | >> Yes, I did.
|
| 00:05:46 | I had a couple experiences where
he would come over and he came
and would be standing there in
my driveway, standing by my
white chevy truck, and I had
just come home from work.
|
| 00:05:57 | I got off at midnight.
|
| 00:05:58 | And I would come home.
|
| 00:06:00 | And I would notice that he was
just standing there.
|
| 00:06:04 | And I would ask him what -- i
don't think you want to know
what I was asking him, a
four-letter word why he was
standing in my driveway.
|
| 00:06:14 | I wanted to know why had was
standing on my property.
|
| 00:06:18 | He would not answer me.
|
| 00:06:20 | He would stand there and then he
would leave.
|
| 00:06:23 | >> Were you afraid of him,
gloria?
|
| 00:06:26 | >> I wasn't afraid of him
because normally I'm already
armed when I come home.
|
| 00:06:31 | >> And when you heard the news
that jared was involved in this
shooting, what did you feel?
|
| 00:06:38 | How much surprise did you feel
about that?
|
| 00:06:42 | >> It did surprise me.
|
| 00:06:43 | It surprised me that somebody
could go and do something like
this to so many innocent people.
|
| 00:06:50 | And right now the whole
community is hurting.
|
| 00:06:54 | We're all hurting for what he
did.
|
| 00:06:56 | >> And do you know his parents?
|
| 00:06:59 | >> I don't know his parents, but
I went by there today to see if
I could buy some groceries for
them.
|
| 00:07:06 | I understand they haven't been
able to leave the house because
they're surrounded by the media.
|
| 00:07:13 | And I just felt bad for them
because they had nothing to do
with this.
|
| 00:07:16 | >> Did you have any
communication with them?
|
| 00:07:20 | Were you able to buy groceries
for them today?
|
| 00:07:23 | >> No, I was not.
|
| 00:07:25 | I went to the neighbor, the one
that's been in the news lately
with wayne smith and his wife
and I spoke to them.
|
| 00:07:33 | And I did tell them that I was
there to try to see if i
couldn't get some groceries for
them.
|
| 00:07:40 | That I felt bad for them, you
know, this wasn't their fault
and the parents' fault.
|
| 00:07:43 | And to see if I couldn't help
them out somehow.
|
| 00:07:44 | And me along with another person
that works for the post office,
roland molina, we both went over
there and asked if we could
help, but nobody came to the
door.
|
| 00:07:55 | >> Knowing jared as you do, do
you think there might have been
any political influence in his
action?
|
| 00:08:03 | Or what would be your guess
about what made him go out there
and do that on saturday?
|
| 00:08:09 | >> I have no idea what made him
do what he did.
|
| 00:08:13 | He's just a strange person.
|
| 00:08:15 | Most of the time that I saw him
was after midnight.
|
| 00:08:19 | And that's the times that i
would see him.
|
| 00:08:22 | 00 in
00 in the
morning.
|
| 00:08:26 | I found him across the street
twirling a little fluorescent
purple light item out there that
was making noises.
|
| 00:08:35 | And I happened to look up, and i
put my flashlight to him because
that was just me getting off of
work and I would put my
flashlight up to him.
|
| 00:08:45 | And I asked him who he was, what
was he doing in the
neighborhood.
|
| 00:08:47 | And he didn't respond.
|
| 00:08:47 | He just kept doing what he was
doing.
|
| 00:08:50 | I went back inside.
|
| 00:08:51 | The next morning I found silly
string that had been put inside
my mailbox jaus covered in silly
string.
|
| 00:08:59 | >> Gloria waddill, thank you
very much for joining us
tonight.
|
| 00:09:03 | You probably feel lucky that his
rage was never turned on you.
|
| 00:09:08 | We're glad that it wasn't.
|
| 00:09:10 | Thank you very much for joining
us tonight.
|
| 00:09:13 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:09:14 | >> Earlier today, senator
barbara boxer called for
sensible gun laws like the ones
they have in california that
prevent the sale of guns to
people with serious mental
illnesses and domestic abuser.
|
| 00:09:29 | She called to reinstate the
assault weapons ban that would
prohibit the sale of ammunition
clips with more than ten rounds.
|
| 00:09:35 | Joining me now is senator
barbara boxer of california.
|
| 00:09:37 | What do you think is possible
legislatively on gun control
now?
|
| 00:09:42 | It feels to me like your party
has given up on this.
|
| 00:09:46 | Is there a way to revive in it
the wake of this tragedy?
|
| 00:09:50 | >> In the wake of this tragedy,
lawrence, we've got to revive a
lot of things.
|
| 00:09:56 | We have to look at the way we
talk to one another.
|
| 00:10:00 | We have to think about the
images that we use.
|
| 00:10:03 | We have to think about the way
our language and the way we
impact other people, and, yes,
we have to look again at how to
keep guns away from people like
mr. loughner, killers like mr.
|
| 00:10:17 | Loughner.
|
| 00:10:18 | And it shouldn't be about
partisanship.
|
| 00:10:20 | My goodness.
|
| 00:10:21 | It should be about how we can
work together to prevent this
from happening.
|
| 00:10:27 | In my lifetime, I've seen too
many political assassinations
and attempted political
assassinations.
|
| 00:10:35 | And every time it just tears our
hearts out.
|
| 00:10:38 | And this one is tearing our
hearts out.
|
| 00:10:41 | To see a 40-year-old
congresswoman who we pray is
going to come back with all of
that fervor and strength that he
has, but cut down like this.
|
| 00:10:51 | It shouldn't happen.
|
| 00:10:53 | >> Senator, I am struck by the
lack of memory in this country.
|
| 00:10:58 | There's a report in the
huffington post today saying
that there's a new limited
edition line of assault rifle
components that are engrarched
with the words "you lie" in
honor of congressman joe
wilson's outburst during
president obama's 2009 health
care speech.
|
| 00:11:18 | Now what other message could we
take from having "you lie" on a
weapon, a statement that was
thrown at president obama.
|
| 00:11:26 | What other message is there that
this weapon is being designed in
effect to be what, aimed at the
president of the united states?
|
| 00:11:41 | A country where we have film of
john kennedy's head being blown
off with a rifle?
|
| 00:11:44 | How can people in this country
even think of putting something
like that on a weapon?
|
| 00:11:51 | >> Well, it's unthinkable that
somebody could do that.
|
| 00:11:55 | And you know, there's another
image.
|
| 00:11:58 | I have one here.
|
| 00:11:59 | I don't know if you can see it.
|
| 00:12:01 | And I don't know whether you've
had it on your show.
|
| 00:12:05 | But this is another one where
you can buy this.
|
| 00:12:09 | It's a sticker.
|
| 00:12:10 | It says liberal hunting license.
|
| 00:12:13 | It shows a donkey with five
bullet holes.
|
| 00:12:16 | And it says, no bag limit.
|
| 00:12:18 | And this son a site called --
I'll tell you in a minute.
|
| 00:12:22 | Patriot shop dot us.
|
| 00:12:23 | They put it, lawrence, under
their humor section.
|
| 00:12:27 | Now, they may think it's funny,
and they have every right to
think it's funny, but the thing
that I was taken with -- and it
might have been with someone on
your show or someone's show on
msnbc, an expert in mental
illness that said that people
who are severely mentally ill
like we think this gentleman was
who committed this heinous
crime, they live in their own
world.
|
| 00:12:55 | But the background culture
enters into it.
|
| 00:12:58 | And no one is saying it caused
him to do this or anything else,
but we do this kind of an image
or what you refer to as a gun
that says "you lie" and we all
know that incident and we praise
that and put those words on a
gun.
|
| 00:13:16 | This may enter the background
noise.
|
| 00:13:18 | And it makes violence okay.
|
| 00:13:20 | People who do it think it's
funny, think it's a joke.
|
| 00:13:24 | That's why I'm saying this is
another moment.
|
| 00:13:28 | Unfortunately, we've had too
many where we need to pause and
think about it.
|
| 00:13:33 | All of us.
|
| 00:13:34 | >> Yeah.
|
| 00:13:34 | The background noise of the
reagan -- the shooting of
president reagan was a movie
made by martin scorsese where
you couldn't have imagined any
crazy person taking that as a
stimuli for going out and
shooting the president.
|
| 00:13:51 | But this stuff is very directly
provocative to that idea.
|
| 00:13:56 | We've never seen material like
this around to be in the
background noise of what people
like jared loughner may or may
not be consuming in the course
of the day.
|
| 00:14:08 | Senator barbara boxer, thank you
very much for joining us
tonight.
|
| 00:14:13 | Thank you very much for joining
senator lautenberg and caroline
McCARTHY'S SENSIBLE RESPONSE TO
This situation.
|
| 00:14:22 | Thank you very much.
|
| 00:14:23 | >> Well, it's an honor to work
with them.
|
| 00:14:27 | >> Thank you, senator.
|
| 00:14:27 | >>> What more can be done to
protect members of congress as
capitol hill tries to slash
budgets, should more money be
put into security?
|
| 00:14:30 | And the gun used in saturday's
massacre, it's already lethal
design made all the more so with
an ammunition clip that doubled
the amount of bullets it could
hold.
|
| 00:14:38 | We'll show you this weapon in
action ahead.
|
| 00:15:14 | snow.
|
| 00:15:14 | And just like you,
the further into winter we go, the heavier
I get.
|
| 00:15:19 | And while your pants struggle to support
the heavier you,
your roof struggles to support the heavier
me.
|
| 00:15:27 | [ chuckles ]
And your cut-rate insurancemight not pay
for this.
|
| 00:15:34 | SO GET Allstate,YOU COULD SAVE MONEY
And be better protectedfrom mayhem like me.
|
| 00:15:38 | [ Dennis ] DOLLAR FOR DOLLARNOBODY PROTECTS
You from mayhem
LIKE Allstate.
|
| 00:16:50 | >>> As some members of congress
say they'll now carry a
concealed weapon on them, the
man in charge of their security
says that is not the answer.
|
| 00:16:54 | Another congressman proposing
cracking down on violent images
directed at government
officials.
|
| 00:16:57 | We'll discuss those next.
|
| 00:18:33 | >>> In the aftermath of
saturday's deadly shooting in
tucson, lawmakers on capitol
hill are weighing the
possibility of extra security.
|
| 00:18:44 | Some members of congress don't
want to change the way they
operate because of the actions
of one crazed gunman.
|
| 00:18:52 | But others say these changes are
long overdue.
|
| 00:18:55 | Among the proposals being
floated, undoing the 5% cut to
congressional office budgets and
adding an additional 10% to pay
for security.
|
| 00:19:06 | A republican proposal to enclose
the house gallery in plexiglas
to keep explosives from being
thrown on the house floor.
|
| 00:19:15 | And an a to z review of the
capitol police and its security
processes.
|
| 00:19:20 | There is bipartisan support that
would formalize relationships
between the capitol police force
and local police departments,
getting both sides more involved
in security at different
political levels.
|
| 00:19:36 | Some members even say they plan
to carry guns, including north
carolina democrat heath shuler,
utah republican jason chaffford
says he's always had a concealed
weapons permit now plans to
carry much more often adding
that it makes him feel more
secure and comfortable.
|
| 00:19:47 | Joining me now, the man who
oversees security in the senate,
terrance gainer, the senate
sergeant at arms, along with
congressman robert brady who
says he'll introduce a bill
making it a federal crime to use
language or symbols that could
be perceived as threatening or
inciting violence against a
member of congress.
|
| 00:20:09 | Congressman brady, how would you
get a proposal like that past
the first amendment of the
constitution challenge.
|
| 00:20:18 | >> Let the supreme court figure
that out.
|
| 00:20:21 | They'll spend money to see if
it's constitutional or not.
|
| 00:20:25 | It's constitutional now as
pertains to the president and
the vice president.
|
| 00:20:27 | Why shouldn't it be
constitutional as it pertains to
members of congress?
|
| 00:20:30 | >> Well, you know, I don't think
you're going to get very far
with that one.
|
| 00:20:35 | Robert.
|
| 00:20:36 | Terrance gainer, in the house
they're talking about increasing
possible security details for
congressmen.
|
| 00:20:44 | If you provided, if you tripled
the capitol police force and
allowed one to travel with every
member wherever they went, we'd
be dealing with one tenth of 1%
of the federal budget.
|
| 00:20:58 | This is not something that's
unaffordable.
|
| 00:21:01 | What is the resistance to
expanding the security force and
enabling a traveling security
force to be out there in the
field with people like
congressman giffords when
they're in a safeway parking
lot.
|
| 00:21:15 | >> Number one, one person
wouldn't do it.
|
| 00:21:18 | To do proper protection of an
individual, you really need 8 to
14 depends on the circumstances.
|
| 00:21:25 | So I don't think putting more
officers or more guns or more
jail cells is the way to try to
reduce violence.
|
| 00:21:33 | That said, some people need to
be locked up and they will be.
|
| 00:21:38 | But I think we need to slow down
and take a very thoughtful look
at what the best way is to
increase security.
|
| 00:21:47 | >> But when you hear the stories
about how this gunman was
gainer,
one person standing there with a
gun could have done it.
|
| 00:21:58 | He went down pretty easily once
people got to him.
|
| 00:22:02 | And when you're -- the
difference between one police
officer beside the congresswoman
with a gun and no one beside the
congresswoman to protect her
seems like a pretty big
difference, doesn't it?
|
| 00:22:16 | >> Well, it is, but the whole
incident unfolded in less than a
minute.
|
| 00:22:22 | So even on my best day in law
enforcement, I don't think i
could have quick draw.
|
| 00:22:28 | He came around ready to do some
shooting.
|
| 00:22:31 | I spoedz if you're going to play
the hypothetical and go back
into time, it would have been
better if someone had paid
attention to him and put him in
a mental institution, then no
one would have got shot and no
officer would have needed to
have been there.
|
| 00:22:50 | >> Absolutely.
|
| 00:22:51 | And I agree with you.
|
| 00:22:52 | I'm not saying that it would
have prevented things, but 19
people shot, 6 of them killed.
|
| 00:22:59 | Maybe with one officer there
those numbers would have been
much lower.
|
| 00:23:01 | Congressman brady, what do you
feel you need in terms of
personal security now after this
experience when you go out into
your district in a situation
like congresswoman giffords was
in?
|
| 00:23:06 | >> I don't want any.
|
| 00:23:06 | I don't want any extra security.
|
| 00:23:07 | I don't need extra security.
|
| 00:23:08 | I don't know why you think i
won't get far with my
legislation.
|
| 00:23:09 | The president of the united
states and the vice president
are just like members of
congress as far as human beings
that deserve to have the same
exact protection from these
people out there than we do.
|
| 00:23:15 | Not to have their entourage of
police officers around them.
|
| 00:23:19 | But not to put a bull's-eye on
the president of the united
states.
|
| 00:23:24 | You should not be able to put a
bull's-eye on a member of
congress or crosshairs where
they live.
|
| 00:23:31 | I don't want any more
protection.
|
| 00:23:33 | I want to come and go as i
please in my district.
|
| 00:23:34 | I'll continue to do that.
|
| 00:23:35 | >> Congressman brady, will you
JOIN congressman McCarthy's
effort to limit the size of the
magazines usable in these
automatic weapons?
|
| 00:23:46 | >> I'm the original co-sponsor
to that bill.
|
| 00:23:49 | carolyn McCarthy is the person
we wanted to put that bill
forward.
|
| 00:23:54 | She had a personal experience.
|
| 00:23:57 | Her husband is still feeling the
effects of that.
|
| 00:24:00 | We know she's the right person
to articulate that bill.
|
| 00:24:01 | I'm an original co-sponsor of
that.
|
| 00:24:03 | >> That's good to hear.
|
| 00:24:04 | Everybody talks about this so
far as if there's no real
momentum behind it, there's
nowhere for it to go.
|
| 00:24:12 | But do you think that coming off
this experience you'll be able
to change the dynamics of this
politically in the congress?
|
| 00:24:21 | >> Unfortunately, tragic like
this gets people more aware.
|
| 00:24:26 | I hope that we do have the votes
to get this passed.
|
| 00:24:30 | gainer, in terms of extra
costs that would be necessary to
increase the security levels,
assuming that there are some
smart and executable ideas that
come up, do you think that in
the current political climate
where the house just last week,
republican house was making a
big thing about cutting the
staff budgets as if that's some
sort of significant cut, do you
think in that environment it
would be possible to get money
to increase spending on security
for members of congress and the
house?
|
| 00:24:58 | And the senate?
|
| 00:24:59 | >> I'm not sure it would be, but
even if it was, I don't think
it's a good use of money.
|
| 00:25:06 | I've done some cost estimates
because we have individuals who
have 24-hour protection.
|
| 00:25:08 | I've talked to the secret
service.
|
| 00:25:09 | If you did 24-hour, 7-day a week
security for all members -- and
like congressman brady, they
don't want that -- it would cost
in excess of 2 billion, with a
b, dollars.
|
| 00:25:20 | I think if we're going to spend
2 billion, we should get more
law enforcement for our cities
where there's a whole lot of
violence going on.
|
| 00:25:31 | >> What about this idea, mr.
|
| 00:25:33 | Gainer of more cooperation
between the capitol police and
local police in the districts
where the congressman is going?
|
| 00:25:42 | I know there are a lot of uses
of that, for example, nypd is
very jn generous about providing
security coverage for visiting
senators who feel that they need
it when they come to new york
city.
|
| 00:25:58 | Do you think there's some
possibilities there that should
be explored?
|
| 00:25:59 | >> You bet I do.
|
| 00:26:00 | I think that's one of -- we're
going to re-emphasize with the
members and the staff tomorrow
when they need them.
|
| 00:26:08 | The capitol police has been
doing that, like the secret
service does.
|
| 00:26:13 | No one has enough to do this by
themselves.
|
| 00:26:16 | If they can re-emphasize to the
staff that when they get threats
or weird people or anything that
makes the hair on the back of
the neck come up, let us know
about that.
|
| 00:26:23 | Then we can work with the local
jurisdictions to figure out
who's in the best position to
provide law enforcement services
if any is needed.
|
| 00:26:33 | A lot of these small events, you
won't need that.
|
| 00:26:37 | It's just not required.
|
| 00:26:39 | gainer, do you have any
advice for congressman brady and
other members about how they
should organize these events
now?
|
| 00:26:43 | Is it a bad idea to do it out in
the open in a safeway parking
lot?
|
| 00:26:44 | Is it smarter to be in an closed
space?
|
| 00:26:47 | Are there any points you would
make to them about how to
organize these events.
|
| 00:26:52 | brady is a great friend
of law enforcement, knows
philadelphia very well.
|
| 00:26:58 | It's an example that we
understand that the members and
their staffs understand their
cities and jurisdictions very
well.
|
| 00:27:08 | So I wouldn't tell -- I would
tell them have that event where
you want to have it.
|
| 00:27:14 | But when it's being planned, the
same way you would say where it
is going to be or how many
people indoor, outdoor, whether
you'll serve coffee, let's take
a look from a law enforcement
perspective and see if maybe a
local beat car needs to ride by
or if something more is needed.
|
| 00:27:24 | It will depend on the time, the
size, the where and what the
issue is.
|
| 00:27:26 | >> Congressman brady, will you
think about those issue ors will
you continue to organize your
events the way you always have.
|
| 00:27:36 | >> I'm going to continue to
organize my events the way i
always have.
|
| 00:27:41 | The police commissioner
contacted me, the mayor has
contacted me and said if i
needed any or I thought I needed
any more protection to come to
an event that I'm having, all i
have to do is shale cooperate
with me and all the members of
the city of philadelphia and if
I need smi protection, all i
would need to do was ask them
and they would provide that for
me.
|
| 00:27:59 | >> That's perfect.
|
| 00:27:59 | Congressman robert brady,
democrat of pennsylvania, be
safe out there.
|
| 00:28:02 | And terence gains, the senate
sergeant at arms, thank you both
for being with us tonight.
|
| 00:28:07 | >> Thank you for having me.
|
| 00:28:07 | >> Thank you.
|
| 00:28:10 | >> Next I'll talk to howard dean
about what congress can do about
guns.
|
| 00:28:16 | >>> And the national rifle
association wants everyone to
stay focused on praying for the
victims.
|
| 00:28:22 | In tonight's rewrite.
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| 00:32:05 | >>> Ahead on "the last word,"
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| 00:35:25 | >>> In tonight's spotlight, the
political aftermath of
saturday's massacre.
|
| 00:35:30 | Tomorrow's first order of
business for the house will be a
resolution honoring the victims.
|
| 00:35:36 | Tomorrow night president obama
will be joined by two of his
cabinet members and supreme
court justice anthony kennedy at
a memorial service at the
university of arizona, but in
the days ahead, the issue that
has been ignored since the last
century, gun control, will come
back up.
|
| 00:35:50 | On this program last night,
DEMOCRAT carolyn McCarthy told
us how she plans to restrict
so-called high capacity
ammunition.
|
| 00:35:59 | Republican peter king wants to
ban people from carrying a
firearm within a thousand feet
of government officials.
|
| 00:36:08 | My next guest is one of the few
in politics who understands both
sides of the gun control
argument.
|
| 00:36:15 | Joining me now former dnc chair
and former governor of vermont,
howard dean.
|
| 00:36:21 | Thanks for joining me tonight,
governor.
|
| 00:36:24 | >> Lawrence, thanks for having
me on.
|
| 00:36:27 | >> Governor, you were quoted in
today's politico saying the
battle over gun control is over.
|
| 00:36:33 | Why have the democrats given up
on gun control?
|
| 00:36:37 | >> I don't think we've so much
given up on gun control.
|
| 00:36:41 | The question is what the second
amendment says.
|
| 00:36:44 | And the second amendment as
decided by the united states
supreme court says -- their
interpretation is that
individuals have the right to
bear arms.
|
| 00:36:49 | So what I said, I don't know
what the politico quote was, but
what I said to the person who
was doing the reporting was we
now have to call upon the people
who won the battle, which is the
gun people, to exercise some
restraint, so show common sense.
|
| 00:37:08 | For example, the new hampshire
legislature last week voted to
allow guns in the statehouse.
|
| 00:37:12 | Now, that's nuts.
|
| 00:37:12 | I don't know anybody who needs
protection in the statehouse.
|
| 00:37:14 | But they will now.
|
| 00:37:14 | I haven't seen a deer in the new
hampshire statehouse for quite
some time.
|
| 00:37:19 | I can't imagine why hunters need
to go in there with firearms.
|
| 00:37:24 | Now that we have the rulings by
the supreme court, now start to
use some common sense.
|
| 00:37:30 | >> Well, there's no question
about the right to bear arms in
the constitution, but that has
been regulated and we did have a
regulation that expired in 2004,
the assault weapons ban, that
did not allow this kind of
shooter that we saw this weekend
to have all that extra
ammunition loaded into the gun
right away.
|
| 00:37:53 | He doubled the amount of
ammunition he could shoot in his
first round.
|
| 00:37:55 | He had over 90 bullets with him
in these extra large clips.
|
| 00:37:57 | Those clips used to be outlawed
in this country and under a
perfectly constitutional
restriction, and the states of
new york, new jersey, hawaii,
california still outlaw those
clips.
|
| 00:38:11 | So why not go back in to those
kinds of details.
|
| 00:38:15 | Don't call it gun control, if
that's the radioactive political
phrase, if that's going to turn
people off in certain states.
|
| 00:38:24 | But go back in to that kind of
certain reasonable limitation on
the use of these weapons.
|
| 00:38:31 | >> Well, the other thing that
you also we ought to be doing,
lawrence, is we have got to stop
guns from getting into the hands
of people like this person who
did the shooting out in arizona
or the one who did all the
shooting at virginia tech a
couple years ago.
|
| 00:38:39 | You know, criminals.
|
| 00:38:40 | These folks are getting guns.
|
| 00:38:42 | They don't seem to have any
trouble doing it.
|
| 00:38:45 | I don't think that the people
who claim that they can control,
people have all the firearms
they want but keeping guns out
of the hands of criminals, okay,
give us some help keeping guns
out of the hands of criminals.
|
| 00:39:02 | Let's close the gun loophole.
|
| 00:39:05 | Let's be serious about instant
checks and things like that.
|
| 00:39:09 | >> What about bullet control,
which is really the piece of
this that we don't pay any
attention to at all?
|
| 00:39:17 | >> I agree with that, too,
lawrence.
|
| 00:39:19 | >> Go ahead.
|
| 00:39:20 | >> I agree with that.
|
| 00:39:22 | >> I can't go and buy 90
sleeping pills today but I can
go and buy 90 bullets today.
|
| 00:39:28 | >> You can buy dumb dumb
bullets, and those are the
things, the cop killer bullets.
|
| 00:39:32 | There's no reason for that
either.
|
| 00:39:33 | What's happened is in the zeal
to win the fight, the so-called
pro gun lobby, which has won,
has gone to a ridiculous
extreme.
|
| 00:39:42 | They've won.
|
| 00:39:43 | So now I say, let's sit down and
see what we really can do that
makes sense.
|
| 00:39:49 | We won't talk about the second
amendment any more in this
country.
|
| 00:39:54 | Id eight times in any statewide
race I was in.
|
| 00:39:58 | But the people in vermont are
not whackos, they're hunters.
|
| 00:40:03 | If that was the reason for not
having gun control, I don't have
a problem with that.
|
| 00:40:09 | We don't have gun laws to speak
of in vermont.
|
| 00:40:12 | We have a high homicide rate.
|
| 00:40:15 | But when you feel it's your
right to have a bazooka, your
right to have dumb dumb bullets,
your right to have a gun that
can fire 90 rounds, it's your
right no matter how many
convictions you had to have a
gun or it's your right because
nobody will do anything about
it, I think that's an extreme
position.
|
| 00:40:34 | I bet 90% of gun owners agree
with me that we ought to do
something around the edges to
make this a safer country.
|
| 00:40:43 | >> Governor dean, you know gun
owners better than most elected
democrats in terms of having a
feel for them and what they
think.
|
| 00:40:53 | Let's consider your -- another
former governor from a distant
state, alaska.
|
| 00:40:59 | Sarah palin.
|
| 00:41:00 | We've discussed on this show
what she should have said about
this event.
|
| 00:41:05 | But what about what she should
say about firearms?
|
| 00:41:08 | Here she is probably now the
most prominent politician who
has a very strong connection to
gun owners and the gun
community.
|
| 00:41:11 | Isn't this a good time for her
in the coming weeks to talk
about what she thinks
responsible gun ownership
involves, things like maybe
don't stop -- bullets and so
forth.
|
| 00:41:23 | Go ahead.
|
| 00:41:23 | >> I wouldn't just pick on sarah
palin.
|
| 00:41:26 | I think in general what I'm
asking is for the people who
have the close relationships
with the hunting community and
close relationship with the gun
community, now let's use this
occasion not to go relitigate
gun control.
|
| 00:41:43 | I think that argument we're over
with that one.
|
| 00:41:46 | But let us look and see what we
can do together that makes some
sense about restricting these
kinds of bullets that only are
made to kill police officers or
restricting the kinds of guns
that are only made to do these
terrible things and restricting
guns from people who have
felonies or have mental illness
problems.
|
| 00:42:06 | Those are the kinds of things
that I got to believe a huge
number of americans degree on.
|
| 00:42:09 | I think we ought to go ahead and
do those things.
|
| 00:42:12 | The leadership will come from
the folks who have pushed very
hard for freedom to own firearms
and they won the fight.
|
| 00:42:22 | And now they have to be
responsible.
|
| 00:42:25 | >> Governor, thank you very much
for joining us tonight.
|
| 00:42:29 | >> Thanks very much, lawrence.
|
| 00:42:31 | >>> As the nation mourns, the
national rifle association is
encouraging everyone to do
nothing but pray for the victims
of the shootings.
|
| 00:42:42 | In tonight's rewrite, why
congress would rather pray than
work.
|
| 00:42:46 | >>> And later, we'll show you
saturday's murder weapon in
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| 00:45:06 | >>> The nra says the only
appropriate thing to do now in
the aftermath of saturday's
shooting is to pray.
|
| 00:45:09 | In tonight's "rewrite" why the
nra is praying you do exactly
that.
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| 00:45:20 | >>> And later, we'll show you
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| 00:47:34 | >>> Time for tonight's
"rewrite," quote, anything other
than prayers for the victims and
their families at this time
would be inappropriate.
|
| 00:47:43 | So says the soulless spokesman
for the national rifle
association, the most successful
special interest lobby in the
history of lobbying.
|
| 00:47:57 | Success in lobbying is scored
according to how difficult your
case is.
|
| 00:48:03 | The nra has a very difficult
case to make, that there should
be absolutely no restrictions on
access to guns and bullets in
this country, and that we must
never allow our homicide rate to
fall below any other country's
homicide rate.
|
| 00:48:20 | No, no one has a more difficult
lobbying case to make than the
nra, but the nra exercises
virtually flawless mind control
over republicans and has left
democrats cowering in fear for
decades.
|
| 00:48:38 | Democrats lost the congressional
election that followed their
last serious effort at gun
control in 1994, so they have
studiously avoided the subject
since then.
|
| 00:48:51 | In 2004, the most liberal of the
viable candidates for the
presidential nomination were as
a pro gun democrat.
|
| 00:48:59 | And the eventual nominee made
sure he was photographed on the
hunt with his shotgun.
|
| 00:49:05 | In the last presidential
election, the subject of guns
never came up.
|
| 00:49:11 | And the democratic party
surrendered to the nra was
complete.
|
| 00:49:15 | Liberals have picked other
fights willing to go to the mat
over a 4% difference in the top
tax rate after blithely allowing
the gun control law they passed
in 1994 to expire ten years
later.
|
| 00:49:30 | Since the massacre on saturday,
precious few democrats have come
forward with a relevant
response.
|
| 00:49:37 | On this program last night, new
york congresswoman carolyn
McCARTHY ANNOUNCED SHE'LL TRY TO
Reinstate the 1994 ban on high
capacity magazines that allowed
jared loughner to fire 31 shots
rather than the 15 the gun was
limited to before 2004.
|
| 00:49:56 | Her colleague frank lautenberg
said he is planning to introduce
similar legislation in the
senate.
|
| 00:50:03 | You heard barbara boxer and
robert brady tell me of their
support for that legislation.
|
| 00:50:10 | And all the smart talkers in
washington insist that kind of
legislation has no chance and
will probably never even come to
a vote.
|
| 00:50:20 | No liberal groups have sprung
into action to flood their vast
e-mail lists to support
congresswoman McCarthy and
senator lautenberg as they have
for so many other issues that
have come up during the obama
presidency, from the public
option to the top tax rate.
|
| 00:50:40 | The collapse of conscience among
professional politicians in
washington is not surprising.
|
| 00:50:47 | The silence of the grassroots
organizations that are so quick
to spring into action for other
legislative items was not
predictable.
|
| 00:50:57 | And it is dispiriting.
|
| 00:50:59 | And so congress will follow the
nra's orders.
|
| 00:51:02 | Anything other than prayers for
the victims and their families
at this time would be
inappropriate.
|
| 00:51:10 | So instead of going to work
tomorrow, members of congress
will hide behind religion and
the media will look on in
wide-eyed awe at their piety.
|
| 00:51:26 | Congress' prayers will not be
heard by the next mad man out
there in search of an automatic
weapon to open fire at a college
or a supermarket or a post
office.
|
| 00:51:39 | And thanks to the nra's and
congress' prayers, the next
shooter will easily be able to
get off at least 30 shots before
he has to reload.
|
| 00:51:49 | >>> According to the latest
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| 00:55:10 | >>> According to the latest
gallup poll 41% of merps have a
gun on their property and 44%
think we should have stricter
gun laws.
|
| 00:55:17 | 42% Think that current laws are
all we need.
|
| 00:55:21 | And only 12% agree with the nra
and think gun laws should be
less strict.
|
| 00:55:31 | Sales of handguns in arizona
jumped 60% on monday.
|
| 00:55:32 | The second biggest jump in any
state in the country.
|
| 00:55:34 | Ohio saw a 65% increase
yesterday.
|
| 00:55:38 | 16% In california.
|
| 00:55:38 | 38% In illinois.
|
| 00:55:40 | And 33% in new york.
|
| 00:55:44 | The glock 19 was the same
handgun used in the virginia
tech massacre which left 32
people dead.
|
| 00:55:52 | Handgun sales went up after that
shooting, too.
|
| 00:55:57 | Joining me now ed schultz, host
"
thank you very much for joining
me tonight.
|
| 00:56:02 | >> Good to be with you,
lawrence.
|
| 00:56:05 | >> You got to explain these
people to me.
|
| 00:56:07 | You're a gun owner.
|
| 00:56:09 | I've never owned a gun.
|
| 00:56:10 | In arizona since saturday
there's been a run on this
weapon, this glock 19.
|
| 00:56:15 | They're selling more than ever.
|
| 00:56:16 | What is that?
|
| 00:56:18 | Can you -- do you understand
that reaction?
|
| 00:56:22 | >> There's a couple of chains of
thought here, lawrence.
|
| 00:56:25 | Number one, when something like
this happens, gun collectors
like to have the firearm that
was involved in the shooting
because they think that there's
going to be some legislation
against it, and it becomes
possibly some day down the road
a collector's item.
|
| 00:56:40 | The other thing is there's this
strange fascination with some
gun owners.
|
| 00:56:45 | They just want to own the gun
that was used.
|
| 00:56:46 | And then others will view it,
you know, this really is a good
firearm for safety.
|
| 00:56:50 | Maybe I ought to get one of
these things because it was
pretty effective.
|
| 00:56:56 | So there's a wide range of
reasons as to why people would
lock on to gt the glock 19, but
you're exactly right, in a
number of different states we've
seen a run on this firearm
because of this tragedy in
tucson.
|
| 00:57:06 | >> Now, this 30-clip magazine
that carries the extra bullets,
it was illegal until 2004.
|
| 00:57:14 | Still illegal in new york, new
jersey, connecticut, hawaii --
california, hawaii.
|
| 00:57:18 | That doubled the amount of shots
that he could fire on saturday.
|
| 00:57:22 | Why would anyone need to be able
to do automatic fire of more
than the 15 bullets that the
thing comes with in the standard
issue?
|
| 00:57:31 | >> Well, you know, this is the
question that gun owners and gun
grabbers in this country who
want, you know, some good
legislation for safety, this is
the question, this has been the
political football.
|
| 00:57:44 | It doesn't take very long to get
very heated.
|
| 00:57:47 | The bottom line here is that
when the assault weapons ban was
put into place in '94 and it
expired in 2004, the democrats
didn't make an issue of it in
the political arena.
|
| 00:57:59 | So they let it expire.
|
| 00:58:01 | That, of course, the limit went
from ten rounds up to multiple
high capacity type clips, which
in this case there were 33
rounds in that one clip.
|
| 00:58:10 | Now, why somebody needs that,
that's a personal judgment.
|
| 00:58:13 | I'm a gun owner, I'm a
sportsman.
|
| 00:58:17 | I've never personally had an
inclination to go buy a firearm
nor have any of my sons when it
comes to a pistol.
|
| 00:58:26 | But there's such a heated
discussion in the sportsman
community across america.
|
| 00:58:28 | Once you make legislation,
there's instant fear that it's
never going to stop.
|
| 00:58:32 | There's instant fear that we
better get this firearm while
the law it what it is because
some party will come in, some
politician will come in and
limit it.
|
| 00:58:41 | These high capacity clips are
for one reason and one reason
only, to carry more ammunition,
to get more bullets out in a
faster method.
|
| 00:58:51 | And what they're used for in
this society other than maybe
target practice is defense or
perpetrating and carrying out
what happened on saturday.
|
| 00:59:00 | Personally, I don't think
somebody needs 30, 40, 50 rounds
in a clip.
|
| 00:59:04 | But that's another thing,
lawrence.
|
| 00:59:06 | You know, if these laws are
loosened up even more, the gun
manufacturers are going to --
they're going to see an open
market.
|
| 00:59:16 | They're going to put even more
clips and adjust the firearm as
time goes on.
|
| 00:59:20 | So I think we're at a
crossroads.
|
| 00:59:22 | Just like those many people in
this country thought that 9/11
changed everything, when is an
incident like this going to
change our thinking on what we
have to do with firearms?
|
| 00:59:31 | I think it's time for some
serious discussion.
|
| 00:59:35 | >> And that means tonight that
ed schultz has just gotton last
word on the last word.
|
| 00:59:37 | Thank you very much for joining
me tonight, ed.
|
| 00:59:39 | >> Good to be with you,
lawrence.
|
| 00:59:40 | Thank you.
|
| 00:59:41 | "
a reminder, msnbc will have live
coverage of the memorial service
scheduled for tomorrow night at
|
